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The first new car my parents bought. The purchased from the dealership, brand new, a 69 Oldsmobile 442 with the 455 and a 4 speed manual transmission. It was not a hurst. It was not a special order. It was on the lot in Livonia MI I believe.
The first new car my parents bought. The purchased from the dealership, brand new, a 69 Oldsmobile 442 with the 455 and a 4 speed manual transmission. It was not a hurst. It was not a special order. It was on the lot in Livonia MI I believe.
So no proof, just a 55-year old memory of a one-of-none car. Sorry, but no 1969 442 came from the factory with a 455. This is easy to prove - either the VIN derivative stamp on the block matches the car's VIN or not.
So no proof, just a 55-year old memory of a one-of-none car. Sorry, but no 1969 442 came from the factory with a 455. This is easy to prove - either the VIN derivative stamp on the block matches the car's VIN or not.
Actually, the next time I'm in CA at the end of summer, I can get every bit of paperwork from the car and an S ton of pictures. My father kept it all in a vest in their house. It's still there. You can blow smoke all you want. It was my mother's favorite car. She still talks about it all the time
You do know dealerships especially near Detroit got all kinds of stuff that wasn't 100% normal for the rest of the nation? Hell the number of cars sold new on lots with the X 327 by Chevy was insane. They put them in cars there before it was anything but an experimental catalog engine. But hey, I'm sure you're the definitive expert.
He knows more than you ever will, and no, there was no special **** going down in Detroit that got a 455 in your factory '69 442. It didn't happen. You came to an Olds site looking for information.You think that the people here don't know Olds? You are mistaken.
Actually, the next time I'm in CA at the end of summer, I can get every bit of paperwork from the car and an S ton of pictures. My father kept it all in a vest in their house. It's still there. You can blow smoke all you want. It was my mother's favorite car. She still talks about it all the time
You do know dealerships especially near Detroit got all kinds of stuff that wasn't 100% normal for the rest of the nation? Hell the number of cars sold new on lots with the X 327 by Chevy was insane. They put them in cars there before it was anything but an experimental catalog engine. But hey, I'm sure you're the definitive expert.
This is real simple. Take a photo of the block casting number and the VIN derivative stamp and the car's VIN. And despite what you want to believe, Olds did not randomly put parts in cars. Every single thing done on the assembly line has complete documentation. These cars were backed by a warranty and a parts network, and even oddballs needed to be serviced and have parts availability. Things like the 455 in the Hurst/Olds have engineering and parts book documentation. A 455 in a 1969 442 does not.
Could a dealership have installed a 455 in a 69 442? Of course they could. They could install a Ford motor if you paid them enough. Neither came from the factory.
Actually, the next time I'm in CA at the end of summer, I can get every bit of paperwork from the car and an S ton of pictures. My father kept it all in a vest in their house. It's still there. You can blow smoke all you want. It was my mother's favorite car. She still talks about it all the time
You do know dealerships especially near Detroit got all kinds of stuff that wasn't 100% normal for the rest of the nation? Hell the number of cars sold new on lots with the X 327 by Chevy was insane. They put them in cars there before it was anything but an experimental catalog engine. But hey, I'm sure you're the definitive expert.
Be sure to get the pics of the engine block casting numbers, engine serial number and POP. Perhaps your mother examined the VIN and engine serial number ?
"You do know dealerships especially near Detroit got all kinds of stuff that wasn't 100% normal for the rest of the nation?" This is a great line, but there is no documentation to support your statement.
Actually, Joe P is a well known and respected historian of all things Oldsmobile.
Think i will follo this for a bit? Might learn sumptin? -eh?
Originally Posted by joe_padavano
This is real simple. Take a photo of the block casting number and the VIN derivative stamp and the car's VIN. And despite what you want to believe, Olds did not randomly put parts in cars. Every single thing done on the assembly line has complete documentation. These cars were backed by a warranty and a parts network, and even oddballs needed to be serviced and have parts availability. Things like the 455 in the Hurst/Olds have engineering and parts book documentation. A 455 in a 1969 442 does not.
Could a dealership have installed a 455 in a 69 442? Of course they could. They could install a Ford motor if you paid them enough. Neither came from the factory.
This has been a interesting topic, kinda reminds me of the 1968 442 Hemi car. While the car was built, it begges the question why would you do it? Other than you really wanted a Charger. The guy should have just bought a Charger.
This has been a interesting topic, kinda reminds me of the 1968 442 Hemi car. While the car was built, it begges the question why would you do it? Other than you really wanted a Charger. The guy should have just bought a Charger.
Personally I'd rather see a Hemi swap than an LS. Different is interesting. Belly-button is not.
Hi guys, wow, I posted my original message about this car in 2017 and forgot about it until I got a reply notice a few days ago.
Not to disagree with Joe, I really don't know you or where you got your expertise from, but I was an Oldsmobile service tech for many years back then, and my Dad bought this car from Peck Oldsmobile in Spencerport N.Y. where I had worked, so my years old memories didn't come from someone spouting Urban legends, I actually drove and worked on this car. I saw a bunch of oddball builds back then, such as a 70's Olds Omega with Pontiac Ventura interior trim installed. That car came off the trailer at Philanz Oldsmobile when I worked there in Rochester N.Y. I was very experienced with Oldsmobile and I doubt I would have mistaken what engine was in my Dads car since I was actually fixing them. Other weird things were that Olds Cutlass's came with Ford 3 speed manual trannys (I know that was standard because of not enough being sold to warrant them building their own 3 speeds, or so I was told by the factory rep). The UAW made a lot of errors back then, I had to fix their screw-ups. At one time I had the windows sticker from that 442 and it is probably still somewhere in my years worth of junk. We are in the process of cleaning out the house prior to moving and if I do find it I will scan it and post it here.
This is not like the Legend of the factory Hemi in a GM car.
Stay Well...
Warren
The RPO M14 "Dearborn" (don't call it a Phord) trans is not weird, it was well documented, first available in Feb 1965, and described in press releases and the Chassis Service manual. It was base equipment in the 442 from 1966 through 1969. This is unlike the use of a 455 in any 442 prior to the 1970 model year, which has zero documentation. Again, show me a 455 block with a VIN derivative that matches a 1968 or 69 442. We'll wait.
Joe, the "Phord" tranny I spoke of was in a 6 cylinder column shift F-85, I'm not sure what the year was but I spotted it on a car I was changing oil in and this would have been in 1967. The reason I say it was a "Ford" tranny was because it had "FOMO" in the case Casting, and I actually asked our Oldsmobile service rep about it at the time. This was a lighter duty 6 cylinder 3 speed than the heavier duty V-8 one you spoke about. I guess you don't know everything, do you?
Asking me to show you a VIN number is of course impossible because as you know this car is long since gone so try again.
I'm wondering Joe, did you ever actually work for Oldsmobile, or are you just one of these Know it all Internet Keyboard Warriors?
Truly knowledgeable people are smart enough to know enough to Never say Never Joe.
Joe, the "Phord" tranny I spoke of was in a 6 cylinder column shift F-85, I'm not sure what the year was but I spotted it on a car I was changing oil in and this would have been in 1967. The reason I say it was a "Ford" tranny was because it had "FOMO" in the case Casting, and I actually asked our Oldsmobile service rep about it at the time. This was a lighter duty 6 cylinder 3 speed than the heavier duty V-8 one you spoke about. I guess you don't know everything, do you?
Asking me to show you a VIN number is of course impossible because as you know this car is long since gone so try again.
I'm wondering Joe, did you ever actually work for Oldsmobile, or are you just one of these Know it all Internet Keyboard Warriors?
Truly knowledgeable people are smart enough to know enough to Never say Never Joe.
Apparently the [humor][/humor] HTML codes in your browser aren't working, or you would have understood that my "don't call it a Phord" comment was tongue in cheek. The M14 HD three speed was never offered with a column shift on Olds A-body cars, only the Saginaw. It WAS used as a column shift trans on the B-body cars and was actually the base transmission in the Delta 88 through the 1971 model year. Note in this page from the 1967 SPECS booklet that M14 was only offered with the V8.
Unless you bought that 67 brand new from the dealer, you have no idea what was done to it before you got it.
I have not worked for Olds, but I have worked ON Oldsmobiles for over half a century. I have a substantial library of factory literature, including Product Information Manuals, Dealer Tech Bulletins, Chassis Service Manuals, Fisher Manuals, Parts Books, etc, etc. I'll give you $100 if you can show me one scrap of factory documentation that proves that the M14 trans was available as a column shift with a six in the 1967 model year. And please don't try the "anything was possible" argument, because that's BS. Olds had to warranty and service every single car that they sold to the public. That means that every single configuration was documented in engineering drawings, parts books, and dealer service documents. I have a copy of the engineering order that changed from the aluminum t-stat housing to the cast iron one, including dates of transition. I have a copy of the tech bulletin that talks about the 750 late 1967 330 motors that were built using 350 castings for the block and heads. There is no such literature for column-shifted Phord transmissions in A-body cars or of 455s in 1969 A-bodies EXCEPT specifically for the H/Os. This is clearly called out in the engine assembly manual. Believe whatever you want, true or not.
I have never seen anything manufactured by Ford labeled FOMO. It has always been FoMoCo. This guy is just a troll with six posts. He is not even worthy of a response.
Joe, I didn't say the 6 cyl car I changed oil for with FOMOCO on the column shift tranny was a 1967, I said it was in 1967, it may have been a few year older model. I was a new apprentice that year and found it odd, so I asked the factory rep about it and he confirmed what I said. I don't claim to know everything. but I was there and remember a lot of stuff. I don't care what the literature says I saw this with my own eyes while working for Oldsmobile. And as for the 69 442 I claim had a 455 in it, if I remember correctly, the 400 engines were painted red, the 330's were gold, and the 455's were red or blue. My Dad's 455 69 442 had a metallic blue engine, I remember that clearly. Does your literature show a blue 455? I also seem to remember that the first 455 we saw was a 1968 model, maybe in a Toro or big body Olds, and was red, does your literature show a 1968 red 455?
I didn't want to start trouble, but you came off as being a bit arrogant so it did kind of **** me off. If you were someone like a well known big time engine builder I doubt you would have acted like you did.
And to BangScreech, I wasn't trolling you guys and trying to cause trouble, I was asking a question and got a snappy reply from someone I don't know. If Joe was Red Byron I would have replied differently.
In any case guys, I'm sorry this discussion wasn't a bit more polite, I'm going to try and find the sticker or the last registration I know I have somewhere and maybe run the vin by you guys, I doubt Olds has anyone left at GM who can verify what the numbers mean. I do still have the working AM/FM stereo radio from the car as well as some perfect metal emblems I'll some day dig out and try to sell.
Have a Gooder...
Warren
Joe, I didn't say the 6 cyl car I changed oil for with FOMOCO on the column shift tranny was a 1967, I said it was in 1967, it may have been a few year older model. I was a new apprentice that year and found it odd, so I asked the factory rep about it and he confirmed what I said. I don't claim to know everything. but I was there and remember a lot of stuff. I don't care what the literature says I saw this with my own eyes while working for Oldsmobile. And as for the 69 442 I claim had a 455 in it, if I remember correctly, the 400 engines were painted red, the 330's were gold, and the 455's were red or blue. My Dad's 455 69 442 had a metallic blue engine, I remember that clearly. Does your literature show a blue 455? I also seem to remember that the first 455 we saw was a 1968 model, maybe in a Toro or big body Olds, and was red, does your literature show a 1968 red 455?
I didn't want to start trouble, but you came off as being a bit arrogant so it did kind of **** me off. If you were someone like a well known big time engine builder I doubt you would have acted like you did.
And to BangScreech, I wasn't trolling you guys and trying to cause trouble, I was asking a question and got a snappy reply from someone I don't know. If Joe was Red Byron I would have replied differently.
In any case guys, I'm sorry this discussion wasn't a bit more polite, I'm going to try and find the sticker or the last registration I know I have somewhere and maybe run the vin by you guys, I doubt Olds has anyone left at GM who can verify what the numbers mean. I do still have the working AM/FM stereo radio from the car as well as some perfect metal emblems I'll some day dig out and try to sell.
Have a Gooder...
Warren
Olds didn't start using metallic blue until the 1970 model year. 1966-69 Toronado engines were painted metallic silver-blue (called Slate by Olds). And again, unless you have a 455 block with a VIN derivative stamp that matches the VIN of the 442, it's not factory installed. The G-block 400s were frequently blown up early and replaced with 455s. The factory never did that.
As for the Dearborn trans, Olds first started using it in Feb 1965, as documented by the sales bulletin I posted above, so the car you saw it in was not a lot earlier than 1967. It was DEFINITELY factory installed in the full-size cars with column shift between 1966 and 71. Only with a Hurst floor shift in an A-body, and never behind a six cylinder. The Dearborn trans used a GM input shaft but the Ford trans-to-bellhousing bolt pattern. The BOP bellhousings came with both the GM (Muncie and Saginaw) and Ford bolt patterns for the trans. The Chevy bellhousing used on the inline six only came with the GM pattern. The Dearborn trans was never bolted to a Chevy motor from the factory.
And yes, I'm an arrogant ***. The fact remains that I rely on factory documents and not what someone posts on the interwebs or a 55 year old memory.
Here's the BOP bellhousing with both trans bolt patterns. Blue arrows are the GM bolt pattern, red are the Ford. Find a photo of a Chevy bell that has the Ford pattern.
Hey Joe, OK I could have been wrong that is was not a 6 but a V-8, I don't have an image in my mind of the engine and I could have been wrong about that, I also don't remember an image of the shifter so it could have been a floor shift, although that was rare back then except on muscle car models. I do know for sure that it was a Ford tranny as well as what the Rep said about it. I also do remember some engines being Bronze but research tells me at least some 400's were also red. I remember my Dads 66 442 with a Jetaway tranny being bronze. My Dads 69 442 never had an engine replaced, I know that because our family owned the car since new and it was in the family until I took it to the junk yard rotted out in the mid 70's. Man do I wish I had at least salvaged the drive train, the engine still ran fine and the TH400 still worked well. As for the 69 having a 455, I think I am right, and you don't, so I guess we'll just have to disagree about that. Maybe as I clean out the house I'll find the old documentation and it can be proven one way or the other.
If you had actually been working in new car shops back then you would be aware that Detroit UAW workers did many screw-ups on car builds, and the factory literature didn't tell you everything. I stand by that because I was there.
Hey Joe, OK I could have been wrong that is was not a 6 but a V-8,
OK, so you admit that your memory isn't the greatest. Any chance that the car with the column shift you claim was an F85 was really a Dynamic 88 (which again DID use the Dearborn trans in a column shift application)?
June 1st, 2020, 12:33 PM
