You MIGHT be a Redneck if...
November 24th, 2009, 02:56 AM
#81
Texas Jim
Join Date: Aug 2009
Location: Killeen, Texas
Posts: 437
F/sure. My '62 Ford 223 6 cyl. had most of the rings broken and in one- inch pieces. It smoked like heck, but it started each and every time right off no matter what the weather was. Engines were hard-rock in those days, but all in all, it's amazing how much abuse one can take and still be salvageable. From my little experience and fact finding so far, it seems to me that the 455s can also take a lickin' and keep on tickin'.
That engine you have doesn't look too bad at all. Unless a head or the block shows a crack when you get them checked, you're "good to go." (From the pictures, I don't see any evidence that would suggest a cracked head or block.)
I really think that you have an overall good foundation f/ a great car. Good Luck w/ it.
That engine you have doesn't look too bad at all. Unless a head or the block shows a crack when you get them checked, you're "good to go." (From the pictures, I don't see any evidence that would suggest a cracked head or block.)
I really think that you have an overall good foundation f/ a great car. Good Luck w/ it.
February 22nd, 2010, 10:54 PM
#84
Registered User
Join Date: Sep 2009
Posts: 47
Man, I know EXACTLY how you feel 
Im 22, and bought my 71 Cutlass this past Thanksgiving. The whole 2 hour drive home im sure my dad wanted to slap me silly, because I wouldnt stop talking about how excited I was about it haha.
Im 22, and bought my 71 Cutlass this past Thanksgiving. The whole 2 hour drive home im sure my dad wanted to slap me silly, because I wouldnt stop talking about how excited I was about it haha.
July 16th, 2010, 07:27 PM
#85
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Thread Starter
Join Date: Nov 2007
Location: Scottsdale, AZ
Posts: 208
This is the in-dash thermometer of my car telling me I should not get out of the car today.
*whimper*
(PS I am currently doing some experiments with paint - Mwahaha. I will post my findings when done.)
*whimper*(PS I am currently doing some experiments with paint - Mwahaha. I will post my findings when done.)
July 17th, 2010, 06:46 AM
#87
Past Administrator
Join Date: May 2004
Location: Rural Waxahachie Texas
Posts: 10,020
Oh man! And I thought 97 degrees with an extra 5 degrees of heat index was bad here! But, I guess if that is dry heat it isn't THAT bad. I just hate the 100% humidity we get here all summer, dew points have been in the high 70s for two weeks. Not denying that 116 isn't hot though....
July 21st, 2010, 08:10 PM
#91
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Join Date: Nov 2007
Location: Scottsdale, AZ
Posts: 208
What, a guy can't take an 8 month break from his car build thread!? Geesh, LOL. I suppose I probably should start posting some of that gig and half of pictures I have saved up.
Sooo when the pictures stopped last I think my horseman was somewhat headless, but not completely. I had gotten the E head off and rolled it over to get that pesky J head.
(I'm going to be honest with you, I'm posting this next picture simply so I can make the following comment: )
"Looks like my oil pan took one right in the bung hole!" -*snicker*...True story.
So I went through the motions again for this head: WD-40, wait, get impatient, wrench, grunt, wait, wrench, wack knuckles, pull bolt, ziploc, repeat.
This side was in similar condition as the other. Nothing looked too "blowed up".
Innards a bit toasty, but who cares I've got new heads!
Then started some random acts of dismantling such as: fuel pump.
"Is that a stud bolt attaching you, or are you just happy to see me?"
Oil filter neck - I want to say that I picked up somehow that Toronados had a special variety of these in order to clear the starter (which in turn had to be relocated due to FWD tranny), but I guess this to be a standard 455 since my starter was in the standard location. (?)
However, its also quite possible I just dreamed up that fact - quick I need a totem...LOL (Anybody? ...No? -- Inception...If you haven't been mind#$@!ked by that movie yet, I highly recommend it! Go now.)
PS I have never put much stock in the "Oh its a dry heat" way of thinking. I spent a summmer or two at my grandparents farm in Indiana and 85%+ humidity is certainly a different kind of miserable. But sweating is sweating and only July in Arizona can make you drive your car "hands-free" for the first 10 mins you get in - I still say the DMV should add that particular skill to the driving tests. Oh lets not forget - Seatbelts will brand skin.
Last edited by Coltonis; November 4th, 2010 at 08:41 PM.
July 21st, 2010, 08:55 PM
#92
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Join Date: Sep 2009
Location: Sheboygan,WI
Posts: 136
LOL...love your wit, and Indiana doesnt hold a candle to Sheboygan,WI for humidity due to living close to Lake Michigan...lol. I miss the days of living in Casper, and Alcova,WY, prairie dogs, riding your brand new three wheeler on the ranch, and dressing in that gawdawful cords, and snap button western shirts...anyways...ahem, dont lose the nice head of steam (no pun intended) you had going with this project, but we all understand how priorities, and work takes precedence over our love/hobby
July 21st, 2010, 10:20 PM
#94
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Join Date: Sep 2009
Location: Sheboygan,WI
Posts: 136
July 22nd, 2010, 06:13 AM
#95
Registered User
Join Date: Sep 2008
Posts: 555
Coltonis, i have a pair of 70 w z manifolds that are in great condition!!! i paid $100 for them you can have them for $100 plus shipping if you want, theres no cracks or damage, thats petty cheap you can ask around its a good deal, id rather see them go 2 you!!!! you have a 70 big block car that needs some help and i get 2 watch it come 2gether we both win!! let me know if you want them and ill pull off ebay
July 25th, 2010, 07:45 AM
#98
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Join Date: Mar 2008
Location: Phx, AZ
Posts: 1,012
What, a guy can't take an 8 month break from his car build thread!?
I know it is easier to take it down, than it is to build it up.
Get a swamp cooler or fan, for your work area. It will help a bunch.
I think I will be looking into some styrofoam for my big old garage door radiator. And the humidity has been a climbing along with the temps.
Sheesh.
Jim
August 3rd, 2010, 07:48 PM
#99
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Join Date: Nov 2007
Location: Scottsdale, AZ
Posts: 208
More...
Initial attempt to remove Oil pan.
Whoever painted the engine that obnoxious orange color not only painted right over the clumps of dirt, but also felt the oil pan was too far down to reach. Glimpse that dead sexy 455 turquoise!
A seemingly simple process was instantly complicated by the Toronado front engine mount that was mysteriously left attached when the engine was originally pulled. ::que ominous music of foreshadowing::
Note this hands free levitating act the oil pan performed when all the bolts were removed.
A measly 4 bolts hold the Toro mounting bracket to the front of the engine. Two on this side:
Two more on this side:
But guess what happens when you try to back-out that sum'abitch on the bottom...
WHAAAAH!
Sooo the harmonic balancer now had to come off too. It is held on by a single stoic piece of 1 inch and 1/8th threaded hardware here-in referred to as "El Monstro!".
"El Monstro!" presents a interesting dilemma since the crankshaft is no longer held stationary by anything. Even if you do have the gargantuan socket that fits El Monstro!, attempting to ratchet it will simply spin the crankshaft. After careful consideration and much debate I decided the best way to remove El Monstro! was to use two bolts through the flex plate. Like so:
And So:
That way the crankshaft trying to spin would cause my bolts to bind on the engine stand and the entire rotating assembly was then fixed in position.
With that problem solved, I was in a perfect position to realize that my "big" ratchet which was essentially a 12" lever was simply an effort in futility. El Monstro! was laughing at me...
It was clear I was going to need something else. Ladies and Gentlemen, let me introduce to you, THE latest model of SP125 Radial Multi-plexing Super Heterodyne Torque Transducer! (Here-in referred to as B.F.P.)
Can you believe someone actually tried to compare this sophisticated and highly calibrated piece of machinery to common plumbing parts!? I mean just look at how seamlessly it integrates with current standards of technology. Not only is it backwards compatable but I hear it is also Y3K compliant...
My B.F.P. in action:
Who's laughing now, El Monstro! ? Mwahahahaha!
I had inadvertently purchased a harmonic balancer puller a while back when I was trying to pull a steering wheel. It turned out to be a pretty smart move since it worked fine for the steering wheel and now I had it for this too.
Oh my, grandmother, what large harmonics you have...
... All the better to dampen you with, my dear!
Yes, I know, those last two comments didn't make any sense. I'm sorry okay. Now where were we? Ah yes, that would bring us back to my original square-1 restarting point... the Toronado mounting bracket needs to be removed.
Initial attempt to remove Oil pan.
Whoever painted the engine that obnoxious orange color not only painted right over the clumps of dirt, but also felt the oil pan was too far down to reach. Glimpse that dead sexy 455 turquoise!
A seemingly simple process was instantly complicated by the Toronado front engine mount that was mysteriously left attached when the engine was originally pulled. ::que ominous music of foreshadowing::
Note this hands free levitating act the oil pan performed when all the bolts were removed.
A measly 4 bolts hold the Toro mounting bracket to the front of the engine. Two on this side:
Two more on this side:
But guess what happens when you try to back-out that sum'abitch on the bottom...
WHAAAAH!
Sooo the harmonic balancer now had to come off too. It is held on by a single stoic piece of 1 inch and 1/8th threaded hardware here-in referred to as "El Monstro!".
"El Monstro!" presents a interesting dilemma since the crankshaft is no longer held stationary by anything. Even if you do have the gargantuan socket that fits El Monstro!, attempting to ratchet it will simply spin the crankshaft. After careful consideration and much debate I decided the best way to remove El Monstro! was to use two bolts through the flex plate. Like so:
And So:
That way the crankshaft trying to spin would cause my bolts to bind on the engine stand and the entire rotating assembly was then fixed in position.
With that problem solved, I was in a perfect position to realize that my "big" ratchet which was essentially a 12" lever was simply an effort in futility. El Monstro! was laughing at me...
It was clear I was going to need something else. Ladies and Gentlemen, let me introduce to you, THE latest model of SP125 Radial Multi-plexing Super Heterodyne Torque Transducer! (Here-in referred to as B.F.P.)
Can you believe someone actually tried to compare this sophisticated and highly calibrated piece of machinery to common plumbing parts!? I mean just look at how seamlessly it integrates with current standards of technology. Not only is it backwards compatable but I hear it is also Y3K compliant...
My B.F.P. in action:
Who's laughing now, El Monstro! ? Mwahahahaha!
I had inadvertently purchased a harmonic balancer puller a while back when I was trying to pull a steering wheel. It turned out to be a pretty smart move since it worked fine for the steering wheel and now I had it for this too.
Oh my, grandmother, what large harmonics you have...
... All the better to dampen you with, my dear!
Yes, I know, those last two comments didn't make any sense. I'm sorry okay. Now where were we? Ah yes, that would bring us back to my original square-1 restarting point... the Toronado mounting bracket needs to be removed.
August 24th, 2010, 11:08 AM
#105
Where have you been Coltonis?! Checking this site is almost becoming religion now and I haven't seen any updates from yah. I just got my 68 442 running after 12 years of sitting, but didn't get to take pictures of the surgery. I was to anxious to wake the sleeping beast again I forgot to grab the camera. Well much props to you and keep it up.
August 24th, 2010, 07:55 PM
#106
COLTONIS wrote: "Can you believe someone actually tried to compare this sophisticated and highly calibrated piece of machinery to common plumbing parts!? I mean just look at how seamlessly it integrates with current standards of technology. Not only is it backwards compatable but I hear it is also Y3K compliant..."
I hear you...nothing like a good cheater bar.
I hear you...nothing like a good cheater bar.
August 25th, 2010, 07:30 PM
#107
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Thread Starter
Join Date: Nov 2007
Location: Scottsdale, AZ
Posts: 208
Thanks to all who are following this thread, encouraging words every now and again definitely helps with motivation. I have been steadily chipping away just haven't been posting the progress like I should. (PS 68's are awesome too!)
So ... Anybody looking to buy a 455 Toronado Engine mount? I know a guy - he'd sell it to you cheap...
Now that there is nothing in the way, about that oil pan...
DEE-licious!
"What do you mean the oil doesn't drain out of the front of the pan!?" ...Brilliant!
And oh yes, there IS enough tar in the bottom of that thing to kill a dinosaur.
After wading through the black lagoon I had no monsters to show for myself, just these few bits of "sunken treasure". Arrr, matey... The small ring is from the hex shaft that turns the oil pump, but that still leaves to deformed bits of metal unaccounted for..
About this point I took a gander at the rotating assembly and had one of those healthy Oh-*****!-Do-I-still-know-what-I'm-doing?-moments.
MMMmmmmm....Good to the last Drop!
The water pump is held on by five bolts on top...
...three bolts on the bottom...
...and a tube and a half of red RTV!!!
I did find it interesting that there was no gasket or boss, it just seals to the plate (err that would go by the name timing cover I assume).
Whats that on the back side, "Ah-hah! A clue Sherlock!". Check out the scrape circle around the crankshaft opening...
I wonder what could have made... oh, nevermind.
Gee, I wonder if its caused by this loose, flopping, and all around broke looking ring of metal clanking around on my crankshaft?
Nah... smart money is still on timing chain gnomes.
*Ahem*... well maybe the gnomes broke it off at least...
Well you see... Some swamp gas, got caught in a weather balloon and refracted the light off venus causing the damage you see here.
True Story.
So ... Anybody looking to buy a 455 Toronado Engine mount? I know a guy - he'd sell it to you cheap...
Now that there is nothing in the way, about that oil pan...
DEE-licious!
"What do you mean the oil doesn't drain out of the front of the pan!?" ...Brilliant!
And oh yes, there IS enough tar in the bottom of that thing to kill a dinosaur.
After wading through the black lagoon I had no monsters to show for myself, just these few bits of "sunken treasure". Arrr, matey... The small ring is from the hex shaft that turns the oil pump, but that still leaves to deformed bits of metal unaccounted for..
About this point I took a gander at the rotating assembly and had one of those healthy Oh-*****!-Do-I-still-know-what-I'm-doing?-moments.
MMMmmmmm....Good to the last Drop!
The water pump is held on by five bolts on top...
...three bolts on the bottom...
...and a tube and a half of red RTV!!!
I did find it interesting that there was no gasket or boss, it just seals to the plate (err that would go by the name timing cover I assume).
Whats that on the back side, "Ah-hah! A clue Sherlock!". Check out the scrape circle around the crankshaft opening...
I wonder what could have made... oh, nevermind.
Gee, I wonder if its caused by this loose, flopping, and all around broke looking ring of metal clanking around on my crankshaft?
Nah... smart money is still on timing chain gnomes.
*Ahem*... well maybe the gnomes broke it off at least...
Well you see... Some swamp gas, got caught in a weather balloon and refracted the light off venus causing the damage you see here.
True Story.
August 25th, 2010, 08:00 PM
#108
Registered User
Join Date: Sep 2009
Location: Sheboygan,WI
Posts: 136
LMAO!!! Ah-Ha!!!...so there was a reason for a rookie welder mounting glasspacks 2 sizes too big....to mask the wonky sounds behind the timing cover...oh wait...that was the P.O.'s cheater gear drive...wait...um..lol
October 3rd, 2010, 11:21 AM
#111
Registered User
Join Date: Jun 2009
Location: Palm Bay, FL
Posts: 4,249
This is a great thread. Just an FYI if you ever have to pull your balancer off again.....put the bolt back in without the washer and then use the puller. The balancer will come straight off over the bolt head and you will be positive that you won't hurt the threads.
October 22nd, 2010, 09:41 PM
#113
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Thread Starter
Join Date: Nov 2007
Location: Scottsdale, AZ
Posts: 208
Welp, at this point the engine is in stasis. Our friendly nieghborhood city code enforcement **** found my carport workzone recently so I ended up relocating the engine to my back patio. It has sat there a bit too long though since I recently noticed some suface rust starting on the fresh metal. I'm prolly going to pull the pistons soon and then pop the crank to see what the old bearings look like. That's probably as much as I'll do at home and then see if I can find a decent machine shop. The trick is I'm also putting my truck (72 Dodge d200) back together at the moment. It runs great but was leaking pretty much every fluid it had so I recently plugged all the leaks and welded a few bits of missing metal back in. I just have to bolt the panels back on to my truck and then it will be good to transport engines to machine shops. I have done some other things cutluass-wise in the meantime too so I'll post pictures of that stuff next week. I'm in Cali. this weekend to ride some roller coasters... Backwards! Woot!
October 28th, 2010, 04:07 AM
#114
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Join Date: Nov 2007
Location: Scottsdale, AZ
Posts: 208
I had started out with just a Chilton's manual for the Cutlass and it was better than nothing, but wasn't anything special. Recently I, for some light reading, picked a ...Tome ... or two. Well four actually, but who's counting...
1970 Oldsmobile Chasis Service Manual -- So yeah, this is THE most fabulous manual I have ever purchased to date. And its not just your standard every-day run-of-the-mill rainbows and unicorns kind of fabulous; no no, we're talking gay-guys-on-parade Fabulous. Anything and everything under the hood you could ever want to repair on an Oldsmobile is in this manual. I think I ended up paying like $53 bucks for it through a third party seller on Amazon. Worth its weight in gold.
1970 Fisher Body Service Manual -- This on the other hand I have barely opened as of yet, but can already tell it will be very helpful when it comes time to re-assemble this jigsaw puzzle-from-hell. Lots of pictures and diagrams that show just how that doo-hickey is supposed to mount into the sprocket. Mostly the sheet metal and interior/trim stuff is in this one in great detail.
FYI, for anybody looking to buy their own: there is the "main" 1970 Fisher Body Service Manual that is about an inch thick and contains all the usual body styles A-B-C-D-E-G-X (I ultimately ended up getting through Amazon for around $30), but there also exists a 1970 "F" Fisher Body Service Manual with an almost identical green cover.
However the "F" body Manual is cheaper (say $15 instead), only magazine thick -- No! not that kind of magazine, minds out of the gutter now, stay with me, we'll say slightly thicker than a "Time" magazine -- and surprise, surprise... it only contains info for the "F" body cars. As I look through my shiny new(/used) "F" body manual I can confidently confirm that only the Chevy Camaro and Pontiac Firebird are F body cars. Not an Oldsmobile in sight.
1970 OLDSMOBILE CUTLASS 442 Assembly Manual Book -- This was the cheapest manual I purchased (that actually contained info about Oldsmobiles.) Its a good thing too since I haven't really seen a need for it yet. I suppose it is worth the $20 just to have it though. It comes vacuum wrapped in plastic as a stack of double sided photo copies that have been three hole punched for you. I highly recommended getting a 1.5" three ring binder to store the pages in. I guess these are the diagrams that were used to assemble a "prototype" of the new models at the factory and work out any assembly line kinks before they went whole hog into production mode.
1970 Oldsmobile Chasis Service Manual -- So yeah, this is THE most fabulous manual I have ever purchased to date. And its not just your standard every-day run-of-the-mill rainbows and unicorns kind of fabulous; no no, we're talking gay-guys-on-parade Fabulous. Anything and everything under the hood you could ever want to repair on an Oldsmobile is in this manual. I think I ended up paying like $53 bucks for it through a third party seller on Amazon. Worth its weight in gold.
1970 Fisher Body Service Manual -- This on the other hand I have barely opened as of yet, but can already tell it will be very helpful when it comes time to re-assemble this jigsaw puzzle-from-hell. Lots of pictures and diagrams that show just how that doo-hickey is supposed to mount into the sprocket. Mostly the sheet metal and interior/trim stuff is in this one in great detail.
FYI, for anybody looking to buy their own: there is the "main" 1970 Fisher Body Service Manual that is about an inch thick and contains all the usual body styles A-B-C-D-E-G-X (I ultimately ended up getting through Amazon for around $30), but there also exists a 1970 "F" Fisher Body Service Manual with an almost identical green cover.
However the "F" body Manual is cheaper (say $15 instead), only magazine thick -- No! not that kind of magazine, minds out of the gutter now, stay with me, we'll say slightly thicker than a "Time" magazine -- and surprise, surprise... it only contains info for the "F" body cars. As I look through my shiny new(/used) "F" body manual I can confidently confirm that only the Chevy Camaro and Pontiac Firebird are F body cars. Not an Oldsmobile in sight.
1970 OLDSMOBILE CUTLASS 442 Assembly Manual Book -- This was the cheapest manual I purchased (that actually contained info about Oldsmobiles.) Its a good thing too since I haven't really seen a need for it yet. I suppose it is worth the $20 just to have it though. It comes vacuum wrapped in plastic as a stack of double sided photo copies that have been three hole punched for you. I highly recommended getting a 1.5" three ring binder to store the pages in. I guess these are the diagrams that were used to assemble a "prototype" of the new models at the factory and work out any assembly line kinks before they went whole hog into production mode.
November 2nd, 2010, 05:36 PM
#115
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Thread Starter
Join Date: Nov 2007
Location: Scottsdale, AZ
Posts: 208
Welcome to my secret Lee-air... start with the seat, shall we.
I think I found out what happened to Obama's "Change" - and would you look at that - I do have seat belts!
Very, very... dirty... seat belts.
And you know all the rat poop that was through out the engine bay and trunk? No worries! - I got 'em. Looks like Mickey went down for the count a while ago. (eeeeeew)
BUT THATS NOT ALL FOLKS! If you call and order right now -cause you know we can't do this all day- we'll DOUBLE THE OFFER! That's right! Not just one, BUT TWO prehistoric rat fossils rotting under your seat for the price of one. Are you getting all this cameraman!?
Its not that I think the maggots did a poor job of cleaning things up, its just... you see... my shop-vac is so much less...
...pestilential.
And I'm shop vac-ing...
And I'm shop vac-ing....
And I'm shop vac-ing.....
Meh. At least it matches the front for now.
I'm not sure my sound deadener was dampening the sound anymore once it got dampened and just ended up deadened. (Not one made up word in that sentence! )
My rear arm rest panels are in pretty decent - dare I say "nice" - shape so might as well remove them before something decides to infest one.
Pretty straight forward removal, two screws down low in the front and...
One hidden SOB going into the sail panel to hold the also-attached (?) back seat filler panel.
The filler panel comes off of the arm rest panel too its just screwed in from behind.
No sooner do I get the panel removed then what do I find?
The dilapidated remains of Mickey and Minnie's summer condo! I wonder if its a time share?
And I'm shop vac-ing...
And I'm shop vac-ing....
And I'm shop vac-ing.....
This side was more of the same. Rinse, Lather, Repeat. If you really want to see how it went feel free to scroll up a few pictures and read through it once more.
And I'm shop vac-ing...
And I'm shop vac-ing....
And I'm shop vac-ing.....
I think I found out what happened to Obama's "Change" - and would you look at that - I do have seat belts!
Very, very... dirty... seat belts.
And you know all the rat poop that was through out the engine bay and trunk? No worries! - I got 'em. Looks like Mickey went down for the count a while ago. (eeeeeew)
BUT THATS NOT ALL FOLKS! If you call and order right now -cause you know we can't do this all day- we'll DOUBLE THE OFFER! That's right! Not just one, BUT TWO prehistoric rat fossils rotting under your seat for the price of one. Are you getting all this cameraman!?
Its not that I think the maggots did a poor job of cleaning things up, its just... you see... my shop-vac is so much less...
...pestilential.
And I'm shop vac-ing...
And I'm shop vac-ing....
And I'm shop vac-ing.....
Meh. At least it matches the front for now.
I'm not sure my sound deadener was dampening the sound anymore once it got dampened and just ended up deadened. (Not one made up word in that sentence!
)My rear arm rest panels are in pretty decent - dare I say "nice" - shape so might as well remove them before something decides to infest one.
Pretty straight forward removal, two screws down low in the front and...
One hidden SOB going into the sail panel to hold the also-attached (?) back seat filler panel.
The filler panel comes off of the arm rest panel too its just screwed in from behind.
No sooner do I get the panel removed then what do I find?
The dilapidated remains of Mickey and Minnie's summer condo! I wonder if its a time share?
And I'm shop vac-ing...
And I'm shop vac-ing....
And I'm shop vac-ing.....
This side was more of the same. Rinse, Lather, Repeat. If you really want to see how it went feel free to scroll up a few pictures and read through it once more.
And I'm shop vac-ing...
And I'm shop vac-ing....
And I'm shop vac-ing.....
November 3rd, 2010, 06:47 AM
#116
Registered User
Join Date: Sep 2009
Location: Sheboygan,WI
Posts: 136
HAHAHA, for some reason I have to believe your related to David Frieburger...keep up the great progress!! The pics help to set goals in my wifes Cutlass build...if we ever decide to do it:/ The commentary, as usual, kicks A$$!
November 3rd, 2010, 08:30 AM
#117
Registered User
Join Date: Feb 2008
Location: Plano, TX
Posts: 11,798
Great work - keep it up... Interiors are fun, sans the mouse messes.
>>>Rinse, Lather, Repeat.
So when exactly does one stop? I bet there are some fools who read this last year who are STILL in the shower....
>>>Rinse, Lather, Repeat.
So when exactly does one stop? I bet there are some fools who read this last year who are STILL in the shower....
