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That's great, but what would be more helpful is a picture of the back of BOTH books; AND, tell us what book this picture represents. Is it the back of the "R" or the "H" book?
Thanks for the insight. Both tags have the engine #8000162 so I'm still a little confused about the origin of motor, unless it was swapped before the initial sale (maybe a test drive got a little heated?!?). BTW, here the original dealer tag I removed before she left for the body shop. Haven't decided whether to leave it alone or have it rechromed. Luckily it's not representative of all the other trim on car which I'm going to leave untouched. The car is totally unmolested and I think should stay that way. She very clean and straight. I'll also include pic as she was loaded in warehouse with 40 yrs of dust intact.
I'd still like to see if you could provide the answer to this question. Which book did you take a picture of in the post above?
That's great, but what would be more helpful is a picture of the back of BOTH books; AND, tell us what book this picture represents. Is it the back of the "R" book or the "H" book?
In other words, are they both stamped with the EXACT same Brant Oldsmobile Co. logo, one has no stamp, they're both the same or maybe a different dealership?
Itis a redline. It's the original spare that was mounted in the trunk. Hated to do it, but the one that was there was so dry rotted, it wouldn't hold air. The others are also pretty far gone but did the job. The spare is in good shape and true. Cars been in a climate controlled warehouse since '81.
Consolidated View of what appears to be the second P-O-P plate & second Owner Protection Manual issued to this car?
NOTE: The P-O-P plate "imprint" (below) demonstrates a detailed & crisp imprint which appears to align with the original P-O-P plate ("RP") - consistent with the original "RP" plate prior to the application of the black roller tape.
NOTE: The reversal of the black roller tape imprint. As witnessed in Post #27 (above) the second issue P-O-P plate "imprint" demonstrates a very poorly embossed "imprint" - consistent interference from the raised offset of the black roller tape on the metal plate.
Just food for thought, as I have no direct knowledge in this area other than my own December/New Year's, '67, built '68 4-4-2 with M20. Those HP and RP "codes," and the P7E09 look suspiciously like Muncie designations and build date codes. If that were the case, it would further muddy the waters with 1969 dates for the trans.
Passenger side headlight bezel is a slightly dented cutlass unit. This car was stored in a large warehouse room with many other cars from 60s through today. Its totally possibly that someone may have "borrowed" the original and replaced it with this one, hoping that the last owner wouldn't notice. She wasn't a car person but her son had hopes of restoring it someday. The bezel is the only missing 442 part.
Just food for thought, as I have no direct knowledge in this area other than my own December/New Year's, '67, built '68 4-4-2 with M20. Those HP and RP "codes," and the P7E09 look suspiciously like Muncie designations and build date codes. If that were the case, it would further muddy the waters with 1969 dates for the trans.
See Post #14. The date code part of that IS a correct Muncie code that is consistent with the build date of the car. The first two letters should be "HF" per the PIM, as I posted in #14.
And did I miss it, or do we still not know if this is a G-block or E-block 400?
That's where we circle back to me asking how is the engine code stamped on oil filler stamped with a 1968 code of 8-000162? It's on both issued POPs. I bought it in Feb as a winter project but thanks to the state of the world, she was delayed in getting into body shop. Hoping to have her home in the next couple weeks.
If the car was manufactured in May 1967, and the booklet shows 1-29-1968 as "put into service" (for new car warranty purposes). I would think the car could have been used in some sorta "performance situation" (drag racing) for several months. If it had a Muncie, it would lead me to also believe it was raced. I would expect it to have been sold as a "new car" with a 400E engine. "New cars" were sold with a new car warranty and Oldsmobile would honor the warranty.
That's where we circle back to me asking how is the engine code stamped on oil filler stamped with a 1968 code of 8-000162? It's on both issued POPs.
1) The oil fill tube is a 1968-up style tube. The 1964-67 engines used a tube with a push-in cap, not a bayonet quarter turn cap.
2) The 1968-up engine unit number is stamped on the tube. The 1964-67 engine unit number is stamped on the front of the passenger side cylinder head. This is documented in the Chassis Service Manual.
3) The 1968-up engine unit number starts with a digit that signifies the MODEL YEAR. 8 = 1968. This is also documented in the Chassis Service Manual. The 1964-67 engine unit numbers have a completely different format that is alphanumeric, not all numbers.
4) And once again, G-block 400 motors did not get installed in 1967 model year cars on the assembly line.
I'm well aware that the engine is a 1968. My point is that both the fill neck and the 1967 POP (both of them) are stamped with the engine ID 8-000162. I understand that this engine was probably installed at the dealer after the born with was blown up (let's say during a rowdy test drive or weekend drag race by dealer manager). Repeating that it was not factory installed is a mute point.
I'm was just looking for some insight. I really do appreciate the vast response I got and interest in car. This is my first venture away from vintage bowties. I'd just like to save her from a millennial that's gonna jam in and LS and bag her!
4) And once again, G-block 400 motors did not get installed in 1967 model year cars on the assembly line.
But was there anything keeping a pragmatic dealer from installing a G-block he may have had lying around as a warranty replacement if the vehicle's original E-block got blowed up?
I'm well aware that the engine is a 1968. My point is that both the fill neck and the 1967 POP (both of them) are stamped with the engine ID 8-000162. I understand that this engine was probably installed at the dealer after the born with was blown up (let's say during a rowdy test drive or weekend drag race by dealer manager). Repeating that it was not factory installed is a mute point.
Then I don't understand your point. Neither P-O-P that you have are one the would have been with the car from the factory. Someone stamped new ones at some time after the car was built, when the different engine was installed.
I'm was just looking for some insight. I really do appreciate the vast response I got and interest in car. This is my first venture away from vintage bowties. I'd just like to save her from a millennial that's gonna jam in and LS and bag her!
If CO had a "like" button, I would use it for this.
But was there anything keeping a pragmatic dealer from installing a G-block he may have had lying around as a warranty replacement if the vehicle's original E-block got blowed up?
Nothing at all, but typically they wouldn't create a new P-O-P. Now, back to the theory that this car was some sort of executive or demo car that didn't get titled until later, and the original engine blew up before that point, then it's plausible that the dealership pulled a relatively new 1968 motor, threw that in, and punched a new P-O-P (or two) for the official first buyer. I guess it would also be interesting to see the part numbers on the other pieces, like the carb, intake, and exahaust manifolds. The car has a 1968 air cleaner, for example. It seems to me that maybe this engine got pulled from a wrecked or damaged nearly new 68, for example, and it was the entire engine, not just the short block.
I'm not trying to stir a pot and kinda like a little mystery. I'm just preparing myself for every sidewalk guru who is going to point out that there's a 1968 engine in my 1967 (Gasp). Fact is there's 54 year old POP or 2 to back up my claim. I'll get the engine code next time I go to the shop. BTW, she does have a Muncie. Haven't gotten under to get case # yet.
But was there anything keeping a pragmatic dealer from installing a G-block he may have had lying around as a warranty replacement if the vehicle's original E-block got blowed up?
Back in those days, parts for warranty work were ordered in from the factory or zone parts warehouses. Dealers didn't stock parts waiting for a warranty claim to pop up. A new car had a warranty to cover them. Maybe 12 months and 24,000 miles ? Its more likely to have E blocks than the new model G block on hand because it was a new release.
Dealers and mechanics didn't make any money on warranty work (beating the flat rate) or the parts. There was a different (lower) "flat rate" used when billing warranty work back to the factory. Thats why the mechanics hated doing warranty work. .
I'm not trying to stir a pot and kinda like a little mystery. I'm just preparing myself for every sidewalk guru who is going to point out that there's a 1968 engine in my 1967 (Gasp). Fact is there's 54 year old POP or 2 to back up my claim. I'll get the engine code next time I go to the shop. BTW, she does have a Muncie. Haven't gotten under to get case # yet.
As the adage goes, when one hears hoofbeats, one does not think zebras. Service replacement parts were made throughout the run of the car, and later, for things like this, and I doubt it would be legal to replace an entire engine with a 68's engine. Nor would I think it would have happened under any legitimate dealership or warranty claim. As the OP will probably find out, the RH C head on this engine will not have the engine serial code from the 67's powertrain, unless I miss my guess. Warranty work for a block involves keeping the rest of the engine. Although people like to romance the muscle car era with thoughts of corporate owned, team raced vehicles, most of those vehicles were sold, at least to a dealership, before racing, and were not a "executive display car." Plus, the odds of some random project 442 being that is statistically unlikely. We have a term for that: non-zero. There is a non-zero chance that Miss Universe will knock on my front door in the next ten minutes and ask to bear my child. Same odds.
Somewhere along this line, this car either blew its engine, and/or had parts or all of it taken for other uses. It was rehabilitated with a 68 442s engine that was available. Blank protectoplates were dummied up to give an air of legitimacy. That's my bet.
I'd get it running and see how you like it. You can replace that short block with an E block to be correct at some time, or an F block to have a 455. Who doesn't like more displacement?
Sorry, I was just answering my door... It was Miss Universe, apparently looking for the guy next door... I truly am not losing sleep about this car. Lord knows if had many engine swapped cars and I'm not really trying to sell this car as something it is not. I bought it last Feb from the consigner for the second owners son. Here's the history in a nutshell. Car sold at Brant Olds in Pittsburgh to owner #1 on 1/29/1968. I have hand written sales info from owner #1 to #2 o. July 24, 1970. That lady drove the car until 1981 when her son asked her to store it rather than trade because he wanted to fix it up one day. Owner #2 passed in 2010 but son continued to pay storage until Feb '21 when he realized he had invested over 10k in storage, was in his mid 60s and was never going to restore it. It was advertised and I bought it the next day. I was told that he might still have the original carb but I haven't tracked him down. I doubt the lady or her son were up to anything shady. Not sure why owner 1 only kept her 18 months but I'm guessing you guys might have some ideas.
I purchased my first car (1967 442) in 1969 for $1695 at the age of 16 (at Dad's insistence since I was "apparently" beating his Buick Wildcat to death). I think this 1967 442 sold for ~$3K (it was a bare bones with front bench seat) new in 1967.
After my paltry down payment, my monthly car payments were ~$40/month - my monthly vehicle insurance was $67/month (male, under 25, high perf. vehicle). I loved that car but it was robbing me blind - no money for malteds for girlfriend(s). When I paid it off, I bought a 1968 VW Super Beetle. I think my vehicle insurance was $28/month.
Its more likely to have E blocks than the new model G block on hand because it was a new release.
Dealers and mechanics didn't make any money on warranty work (beating the flat rate) or the parts. There was a different (lower) "flat rate" used when billing warranty work back to the factory. Thats why the mechanics hated doing warranty work. .
Just indulge me for a second while I cling to a narrative that is slowly being proven false ... but here's a scenario: since money was tight for warranty work, wouldn't that encourage a dealer who didn't mind working in the gray zones a little bit to cut corners by using a new-ish G-block he had sitting there (maybe a cash customer wanted a 455 upgrade in his new '68 -- there were lots of instances of this happening at Chevy and Pontiac dealers).
I think Koda's explanation is probably more likely, but is mine plausible?
Hey it's not like another GM dealer was squeezing 427s in Chevys about 20 minutes down the road in Canonsburg in 1967. He's a freaking hero. Just saying.
Well that thread only took 78 posts. I'm sure it'll go on once I dig up some #s. In the mean time, anyone know how to get a factory power antenna to retract that's been in the up position for 40 or so years? Is there anyone who rehabs them if I do get it out?
I would spray the mast with something like WD-40. Let it soak. Can you hear the motor trying to retract it? If so don't over try it. You could strip out the plastic center.
January 18th, 2022, 06:59 PM
