bainer1290

I figured it would be a yes. Thanks!

Smitty275

Or put the original plug back in if you have it.

bainer1290

Making a little progress, they had to go to 20 under on the rods to get to the right clearance specs. They will then install new 20 under rod bearings. You guys called it as they could not take that small amount off...

The pistons have been rotated 180 so the orientation is now correct.

Then it will go back to the balancer to get it re-balanced.

Then the short-block can be re-assembled and the top ring gap opend up to KB specs.

All of this is happening at no cost as it was thier mistake. Hoping to have it home later next week...

442rocketdave

I would run the top ring at .022 and the second at 28!!! I am running mine at 24 and 30 and its a street strip motor. also loosen up the clearance on the pistons a tad!!

bainer1290

Top at .022 and 2nd at .028, aren't those backwards thought the top was gapped wider than the 2nd?

cutlassefi

Apparently you've never used the KB hyper pistons. On a 4.155 bore they recommend approx. .028-.030 top ring end gap.

442rocketdave

Sorry did not know he had those pistons, but what he originally said his gap was at was way to tight for any pistons. The second ring is greater than the first to alleviate ring flutter.

cutlassefi

Lots of guys don't do that anymore due the addition of the anti detonation groove.

442rocketdave

I would still run them a couple larger on the second ring, I ran 28 and 34 on my race engine and they had the anti detonation groove. So if they recomend .022 on both I would run 24 and 26! JMO

bainer1290

KB recommends .028 on the top and .017 on the 2nd.

I will have the top at .028 and the 2nd at .022.

cutlassefi

Good idea.

bainer1290

Well I got the engine back:
-crank rod journals were ground to 20 under (new bearings installed) to get .0025 clearance on rod bearings
-rotating assembly was re-balanced
-pistons are now oriented correctly
-top ring gap opened up to .028

Overall it looks pretty good, sucks that it took so long and had to go back but thats in the past now.

So I have been scratching my head on what way to go with the oil pump and pan. I have a new Melling M22F pump and a new oem style 5 qt oil pan (with baffle) that I was going to use. I had planned to shim the pump spring by .250 to get a bit more pressure. I have read this will work fine for my application but I am wanting some feedback.

My main goal is to have a solid street car, I might take it to the strip once a year but other than that it will be for weekend crusing. It will not frequently see 5,000 rpm's but it might happen a few times while having some fun.

Bearing Clearances:
-Main Bearings #1-4 0.0028
-Rear Main 0.0040
-Rod Bearings 0.0025
-Rod side clearance 0.015-0.020
-I plan to use restricted pushrods from cutlassefi

GOSFAST

Most 455's we build have very similar clearances, .0025" mains, .0025" rods, all run fine with the standard Melling pump, no mods! Rod side clearance .018" (nominal). If you want to shim it, use a .060"/.080", you'll be fine.

Just about all available lifters have a built-in metering system for upper oiling!

The build mentioned earlier in this post is in the ride and runs excellent, also dynoed previously with no issues!

Thanks, Gary in N.Y.

P.S. Running "restricted" pushrods leads to other issues, main one being premature valve spring failure! Been down this road before with numerous customers! It takes a decent oil supply to control spring temps, keeping them "cool"!

bainer1290

Thanks for that info Gary.

Got her together and in the car, just need to get the pushrods.

I primed the oil system, then took a Comp checker rod set to 9.80 vs the stock 9.5 pushrod. What do you guys think of the pushrod pic, the 9.8 is on the left and stock on the right. I just used the regular hydraulic lifter was that correct?

Smitty275

That pattern on the left is about as good as you will ever get it.

bainer1290

Thanks Smitty!

So using a regular lifter was ok? I just saw some other postings online where they said to use a solid one, or use a stiff spring inside the lifter. I just primed the oil system then used the regular lifter as is. Want to make sure that was ok.

Thanks again

cutlassefi

Really Smitty? Imo not by a longshot.
Here's an iron headed Olds with Ford part number rockers. Personally I wouldn't settle for much less than a pattern like this. Narrow and right in the center of the stem.

442rocketdave

I have run those Ford roller rocker arms and you have to get the right length push rod every time I ran them I had to make custom 2 piece pushrods which sucked!! Use the adjustable pushrod and find the exact length you need and then order them and I would not use restricted pushrods but thats JMO and make sure the pushrods are hardened so they dont get chewed up by the guide plates.

Smitty275

Aside from a slightly different location the pattern is the same width as your pattern. That's where his rocker puts it. You can change pushrods until your blue in the face and the narrowest pattern is what is best and you not going to change its location. Valve length and how far the valve seat is sunk in the head will change where a rocker sits on the valve tip. If you think you get absolutely every set up to come out dead center your kidding yourself.

EightballZ

old olds fan recently told me how to measure push rod length..maybe this helps:

"Here we go again, it's already dropped me once, but I think i have it beat.
The method of determining pushrod length for a stud rocker application uses an adjustable pushrod, set to a given length that you think might be correct. First set your valve lash, to zero, tighten your rocker-arm locking nut, cycle the camshaft, and watch the way the rocker arm travels throughout the range. If the contact point of the roller tip travels away from the stud centerline as it reaches maximum lift, your pushrod is too short. If your contact point travels toward the stud centerline from zero lift to maximum lift, your pushrod is too long. If the contact point at zero lift and at full lift is the same contact point on the valvestem, then your pushrod length is correct, maximum valve lift is achieved and proper rocker-arm geometry is set.
In hydraulic-lifter applications this procedure has to be performed with a lightweight checking spring, so that the lifter plunger does not collapse during the lift cycle. You need to add .050” or so to the pushrod length to allow for the recommended .050” lifter preload in the hydraulic lifter. OR you can set valve lash for zero lash and add an extra ½ turn, this makes up the .050” of preload on the lifter, this way you would not add any length to the pushrod after determining the correct length.
Note: Notice where the roller tip contacts the valve at zero lift. If it is not in the center, not a problem, as long as it is in the same spot at full lift.
Thanks to Bill Trovato, with a little input from me"

cutlassefi

Again this was with Ford rockers. If it came out different one way or the other I would have entertained using a different rocker.
However when using the correct rocker for any given application I've yet to have them come out much different than what I showed.

Thanks.

Smitty275

His pattern is maybe .035" off center. Can you honestly tell the world that you have a selection of rockers on hand to try out on every Olds engine you assemble to put it dead center so you know what to order a full set of?

Not every guy putting an engine together in his garage is going to be able to pick and choose from a selection of parts. He uses what he can afford and makes the best of it. That tiny little bit he is off center will not hurt a thing AND its what he has, so he will have to live with it. It's as good as it will ever get with the pieces he has to work with.

cutlassefi

No not at all. I guess I've just been lucky then.

4Door67

Keep in mind that the angle on some aluminum heads change and it will cause certain headers to fit incorrectly. I picked up a set of full tubuler hooker headers from a guy for $75 bucks because he had that had that happen to him. Don't know a bunch about it, just my experience, correct me if i'm wrong.

bainer1290

Thanks for all the input guys, I don't mean to get you all fired up I just want to get some feedback from the experts as I don't know as much as you guys on this stuff.

Today I removed the outer valve spring and also primed the oil system with a drill before trying each different length.

What do you think?

bainer1290

Nobody has any opinions???

Smitty275

Did you try 9.850, 9.900? As you can see going shorter does not help you any at all. I think going longer isn't going to make much in the way of positive gains either.


I'd go right back to the first set up you had with what I believe was the 9.800. There was, and is, absolutely nothing wrong with the pattern or location you had there.

bainer1290

Hey Smitty,

I did not try longer, and yes I agree that the 9.80 was closest to the center with a skinny pattern. I think those are the ones

Would these be a good choice? I think they are non-restricted what do you think about restricted vs non?

http://www.summitracing.com/parts/cca-7183-16

Thank you

442rocketdave

The only thing about those is you have to open up the holes to 9/16 of an inch and the reason I dont like restricted is I used them and my springs weakened very quickly from the heat due to lack of oil on the springs to keep them cool and galled up a few rockers also but the 3/8 are much stronger and wont flex. JMO

bainer1290

I just measured and the pushrod holes in the head are 1/2 inch so are you saying I need to go with the 5/16 diameter to work with these holes?

http://www.summitracing.com/dom/parts/cca-7662-16

442rocketdave

I had to on one of my motors when I used a solid lifter camshaft and needed stronger pushrods so I used the 3/8 and I had to enlarge the holes to 9/16 for clearance and I remembered thinking the 1/2 inch should be large enough but they rubbed! So drill them out its something you can do with a drill press and a little time.

bainer1290

You make a good point wish I would have though about that before installing the heads and intake...

I just have a regular hydraulic cam and lifters, so if I go with 5/16 then will I be good with the 1/2 inch holes? Is there a real need for 3/8 pushrods with my setup?

442rocketdave

You should be fine with the 5/16 especially if they are chrome moly hardened so they wont get chewed up by the guide plates. Your spring pressure is only 105 to 120 seat so you dont need 3/8 pushrods and no need to enlarge the pushrod holes to 9/16. You have a good street setup and it should run great!

bainer1290

Sweet I appreciate all the help guys! Should have it running in a few weeks getting excited!

Are there different guide plates for 3/8 vs 5/16? Not sure what I got I do know they are comp cams ones I think the number is 4843 or something similar....

442rocketdave

I have the comp cam guide plates and they are 5/16 and the only problem is that the hole for the stud is 3/8 and not 7/16 because I have the 7/16 studs with my roller rockers and I drilled them out which was a PITA because they were so damn hard of a metal. Put them in a drill vise with a drill press and no problem. Not sure if you have the 3/8 studs or 7/16.

bainer1290

I have the smaller studs the guide plates bolt up nice just concerned as I think they are for 3/8 pushrods so I might have to get the 5/16 guide plates to do it right.

bainer1290

Looks like comp cam 4843 is for 3/8 and 4842 is for 5/16. Luckily they are cheap only a $20 extra part.

GOSFAST

What size studs, the bottoms, did you use in the heads?? You are showing guide plates, both sets, for a 5/16" stud?? We do use these Comp plates but we open the holes to 7/16".

I would not use a 5/16" (OEM) thread on the bottoms, to do all the work you have done I would hope you have a "conventional" R/A stud similar to the BBC's??

Thanks, Gary in N.Y.

P.S. We've built numerous (flat-tappet) units with 5/16" pushrods, never an issue! I would also add, your pattern appears to want a 9.850" length, don't forget you lose (add) the distance of the plunger in the lifter bodies, assuming a hydraulic platform!

bainer1290

Thanks for the info Gary, I am using a set of Comp Studs I believe they are made by ARP as they say ARP on the one end. They are 5/16 on the cylinder end and 3/8 for the rocker. They look to be pretty solid?

bainer1290

I have ordered up the pushrods and guide plates from Summit, should be able to break in the engine in a few days when the parts arrive.

If you are interested in the rest of the car build its here https://classicoldsmobile.com/forums...cutlass-s.html

Thanks again guys for sharing your knowledge