turnpike_cruiser

What about sleeving the block? Might be less trouble that traveling 650 miles for the other engine...

Allan R

As others have suggested, that's definitely an option in the big picture. I guess one other thing that might make a difference is that this project engine is the bare engine, nothing more. The other engine is a runner and will be complete, so I'm thinking right out of 1st gear it may be a better option - if nothing else, just for starter, carb, mounts, dist, etc. I'm still thinking about it so your suggestion is not lost on me. There are so many things I would like to see about the SK engine. Like: how hearing it run, comp test etc. Might not need anything other than a minor cleanup to do a swap? The distance and time are the big items.

Keep your thoughts coming; they are very much appreciated.

svnt442

Long tail 400's have been installed in lots of A bodies over the years, but it would be better to get your hands on a short tail for driveline angles. That's why they did the short tail housings in these cars in the first place.

Tony72Cutlass'S'

Hey Allan,

Just to second what alot of guys have said, i read a book recently that said that apparently sleeving is getting more and more popular, especially since the blocks in our cars are getting older and older.

What kind of block do you have in your car right now? I guess 350 since you're looking to upgrade to 455??

Cheers,

Tony

Allan R

That's what I was thinking in the first place. Nice to get confirmation.


You got that right. It's the 350 the car was born with. Very solid and dependable engine. Am I nuts to want to change to a 455? I could probably just pull the 350 and rebuild it to factory (newness) while maintaining correctness for the cars VIN and documents. I do have to say though that getting involved in the project is such a nice hands on experience. I want to change the water pump on my 350 for one that's HD, so I'll also be checking the timing chain when I do it.

Tony72Cutlass'S'

I'm definitely a sucker for "if it ain't broke then don't fix it" kinda deal. Would you be rebuilding it yourself? Or are there good engine shops out there in edmonton?

I've been reading alot of horror stories about people buying a set of pistons that are COMPLETELY out of weight proportions/unbalanced etc.

Although i do agree, i have played with the idea of maybe upgrading my engine one day, but, with speed limits and the way ticketing is going up here in Canada, it kind of makes me want to leave my 350 alone and drive it t'ill it burns more than 2 quarts between oil changes.

I would totally try my hand at rebuilding a 455 though if i had one lying around as a weekend project. Never know when you might find something you can drop it into!

Cheers,

Tony

Allan R

Hey there Tony,
If I have my engine redone, I'll probably have it done by a local shop so I can get warranty if necessary. There are a few good places out west here. Maybe even use the same guy who built Ken's 455 for him. Only it will go straight stocker. This 455 project has been sitting around for a while. If you get into it, I think you will enjoy it too.

re: speeding tickets? Out here there's not a lot of enforcement; the last one I got was ummm, 1978. But I tend to drive conservative and just enjoy the car and thumbs up. Chicks like the car too; shocker huh?

I pretty much need to use GPS for the speed though because it's way more accurate than the mph gage I've got. BTW, there is some error with the tire size being 225/70/14. I have a trans adaptor gear I need to install so my speedo will be more accurate.

Tony72Cutlass'S'

Cool! I havnt tried the gps comparison yet my tires are 14'' bfg's that I got on rally rims off a cop friend of my that needed some cash. 200 for the set on new tires.

But alas, I degrees, soon as I clean out my parents garage of the outboard motors I have lying around, maybe it'll mean it's time for a 455 :O

I'll have been hoping to post some pictures of my restoration soon, I've been holding off since it wasn't a pretty sight when I pulled the car out of a field near Ottawa city. And all you guys have pretty awesome looking cars. Hopefully soon i shall catch up!

Cheers,

Tony

66ninetyeightls

Keep in mind over the counter GPS are not very accurate when it comes to speed. Its normal for them to be 5 - 10% off.

svnt442

That's news to me. I got pulled over on my way to Illinois 2 years ago and the GPS said exactly what I got puled over for doing. Thankfully the officer saw fit not to give me a birthday present.

66ninetyeightls

I work for an auto manufacturer and we had to deal with TomTom and Garmin last year about this issue because people would claim their speedometers were not accurate based on the GPS reading.

The accuracy will apparently change on a regular basis and its not the fault of the manufacturer. All the GPS sats are controlled by the US military and they apparently change the accuracy of the signal on a regular basis. They only know what correction is needed this way their tech can't be used against them accurately.

Allan R

First I have to preface this with saying that in Canada we use the metric system, so our speeds are in km/hr. Yes US cars have the calibration below the mph value, but my 72 Cutlass only has MPH.

So, I agree with the speed part, but lucky for me I was doing the speed limit, sort of. On my recent trip to Vancouver, the Garmin I bought showed my speed within 2 km/hr (1.2 mph) of the cars speedo. That's pretty reasonable from my point of view. When I took my 72 to the Olds car show in July, my speedo wasn't anywhere close to matching the speed limit. So I used the GPS and common sense: keep up with the other cars.

Good for you. Obviously a law enforcement officer with a sense of discretion. Few and far between IMHO. Glad it worked out

Allan R

Well, back to the teardown.

Today I actually got quite a few things done.

1. The distributor is out (I had to use a breaker bar to turn the darn thing enough that I could pop it out).
2. The dipstick tube is out - actually easier than I thought. The dipstick has some really caked on gunk that I'll have to wire brush off.
3. The cam cover tray is off and the cam looks really good.
4. The harmonic balancer nut came off with the assistance of my neighbor and a breaker bar. I'm guessing it took about 500 + lbs of force to bust it loose.
5. I got a good look at the timing chain and the crank gear. The chain looks new but has about 3/4" of slack in one side only. Is that too much? The crank gear looks like it's brand new.
6. Still waiting on the puller to take off the harmonic balancer.

7. Decided to start with a little cleanup of the heads. They look incredible now considering what they were. I'll post pics tomorrow. I know that I probably didn't have to do this myself, but it was fun and dirty

I think a shop would appreciate the work that's been done before they tank them and clean them up. Also, the less time they are in the shop may reduce the cost? One of the valves on the #7 cylinder was stuck part way open and the spark plug looked like crap. This engine probably smoked a lot.

8. Pulled the block heater. By shining my light in the cylinder I could see the cracks in the cylinder clearly outlined in a ghostly white light. So, my theory is this: This engine probably froze one year and cracked the cylinder. Coolant leaked into the oil and caused the engine to overheat and seize. There's also a white powdery residue from the distributor seal area that would indicate coolant contamination. I guess the coolant that came out of the block when I flipped it came through the cam lubing port.

So, Ken. I'm going out on a limb and suggesting that you might have got bushwacked by the PO of the engine. I really doubt that it was running when it was pulled. I think it was already hatched and when someone started taking it apart they decided it was more than it was worth. This is just a hypothesis since I can't prove it.

9. Now for the pistons. How the heck to I get them out when the crank won't turn? The connecting rod bolts and nuts are not accessible on 3 of the pistons. HELP. I'm seriously at the stage where this thing is going to a shop to see whether it's salvagable (by sleeving) or not. I'd like to do the full teardown for personal reasons. If the block isn't any good, I can probably still buy another block cheap and still build the engine.

and the beat goes on, on and on and on. Dig it baby!

jensenracing77

for the pistons, the rods that are mostly a strait line shot down the cylinder is the ones you will want to do first. soak all of it with a good penetrating oil and get those pistons out first. then with those out you will have less of a drag trying to turn the crank. the white powdery stuff around the distributor may be from the aluminum and steal being together for so long. aluminum on steal will corrode with that white stuff left behind.

Red Delta

The strange thing is that the GPS never matches my speedo (on different vehicles that I drive) but the radar speed readers on the side of the highway always match my GPS.

442_Mustang

I was gonna say what Red Delta said... I've checked that several times and the GPS is awfully close.

Allan R

Great tip! When I looked at the inside of the cylinders, most of them were in decent shape, but a couple had rust forming below the rings. That may be a challenge in getting them out because I cant reach up there. I'll shoot some penetrating oil in from the bottom too. They probably need a good soaking. I'll let you know what happens.

The distributor really was a bit of a challenge. Maybe I should have tried hitting that hexagonal connector with a drift to force it out? Moot point cause it's in the trash now.

Allan R

I'll take that bet. Oh, I guess I win! It came out really easy. Rubber mallet whack, whack, whack side to side jiggles, rotate and pull up. Piece of cake. Next time you're out west, drop by and I'll give you a lesson

Now, what did I win??

442much

Yeah, It was on Kijiji and was under a tree with a blue tarp on it. I thought that I could probably fix it and in the end decided not to even try. Does the cam look factory or aftermarket? Actually, I didn't put the dist in. I put an old cap and think old wires too. I was considering tearing it down to clean it and paint it all up as a life size model. Never got around to that either. Thanks for the forgiveness. From what I read, it looks like it could still be used. Don't know much about resleeving but it sounds promising. So, to all, other than tearing an engine down, what's the best way to buy one without finding "squirrels" in it.

Coltonis

Arg matey... weigh engine and prepare to make SAIL! LoL.

Sleeves are a fine thing. In fact, I often find myself wishing people would go with sleeves more often...(albeit usually in regards to their apparel more so than their engine)

Something to think about is all these new-fang-dangled aluminum engine blocks use cast iron sleeved cylinders from the factory; they always work good. (And sleeving aluminum is considered more problematic than cast iron.)

I am of the school of thought: Rust is "WEAKNESS LEAVING YOUR ENGINE!". You could have every crevice of that engine rust free in 30 minutes with nothing but a battery charger, a piece of re-bar, and box of washing soda. Oooo, and how big is your bath tub?


My vote would be don't give up on it.

After all the worst that could happen is it could blow up...
At which point you would have just gotten to see something blow up...
Which really means you've got a win-win situation on your hands!

Fakser

I feel like opening an engine rescue shelter after reading this thread. I could see the infomercial now...........glistening thoughtful sound effects........then the spokesman....Don Knots from the Andy Griffith show saying "for less than a cup of coffee a day you could sponsor an engine that could help a red blooded American live their dream".

Way to stick to it lookin like a solid machine shop will be able to breathe new life into that sleepin beast.

66ninetyeightls

NO NO NO!!!!! You have to accept the bet before trying!!!! LOL

Allan R

Yeah, I can see the wife saying "Use the bathtub sweetheart, it's there for things like this" . With my luck I'd electrocute myself. Definitely not giving up. Haven't been beat yet by a long ways. Jensenracing gave me some good advice on getting the pistons out so I'm going to try for a couple today.
You're kidding, right? I know where I can get some C4 and save the problem of waiting.....

Why, thank you. Had to laugh at your infomericial idea. Bad idea to use Don Knotts - he's been dead (July 21, 1924 – February 24, 2006) for over 5 years now. That would just suck knowing your sponsor spokesperson is as dead as your engine . I think only us old guys know who he was. Most of the 'younger' crowd would watch one episode and probably tune him out. Very likable, but a total putz.


Can't blame a guy for trying. Craig, pls check for a pm at COJ. I sent you a question about a post. thx

66ninetyeightls

I replied this morning.

Coltonis

HA! Dead never stopped Billy Mays...

(He's STILL screaming at me out of my TV wanting me to buy things from beyond the grave. Now that's a dedicated salesman; I mean what am supposed to tell him, "drop dead?" )

Allan R

Well, I sent this guy an email today asking how much he wanted for the whole car..Aside from the RF tire being flat, I'm hoping it's a driver. Looks like it's got rust in some of the typical places. Waiting to hear back. What do you think for $$? I'm thinking 500.00 I'm really curious to see what other options it has. If I decide to buy it I'll probably part it out - good news for the big car forum.

jensenracing77

i don't know Canada but here that would be worth close to $500 in scrap alone. not that i am saying to scrap it but if you parted all the good parts, the left overs would bring good money in scrap. if you can get it for $500 i would jump on it.

Allan R

Reason I ask is he want's 400.00 for the 455/400 engine/tranny if I pull it myself. 600.00 if he pulls it. I'm thinking that if I can get it for 500, it'll cost about 100 just to drive back home where I can dismantle what I want. Wish I had your storage space. Heck I wish I had his storage yard! Still, need to hear back from him though.

Fear Reborn

So I guess I should jump on the 70 455 with E heads I got started today for 150 then huh? Had some metal in dust in the oil and a tick on the right side. But if you guys are trying to save this one it makes me feel better

Allan R

Heck yes! Throw us some pics. How did you get it so cheap?

Allan R

Just an update on this project.
Can you play TAPS???
The block would not give up it's pistons for love of trying. I soaked them good with PBBlaster and let them sit overnight. Borrowed my neighbors huge 'swingpress" (thanks for that one Craig) and a big drift. He said go for it. They're made by Sears so if they break I get free replacements! What a guy

I started by loosening off the connecting rod bolts and taking off the caps. Having decided that the pistons would be replaced anyway, I started swinging with the idea of hammering them out the top of the block. Got 4 of them (alternating sides) out. The others were really stubborn so it thought WTH? I'll just bust them and take them out that way. Well that got another one out.

So now here I am with a block with 3 pistons in it. Lets see if I can turn it over. Hooked up my breaker bar and snipe and went at it. Damn near busted them both. It wasn't moving.

Called a local machine shop and talked to them about sleeving the 7 cylinder. They quoted a price of about 50/cylinder to machine and about 70-80 to sleeve #7 depending on condition. Thought I'd take one more crack at the stuck pistons. The #7 piston started to give, but when it did there must have been more damage than I could see in the water jacket because part of it fractured out. No point going any further. The block is toast. Off it went to the scrapyard the next day.

re: the 76 Regency? I wanted to go get it now. One of the other members on this site also lives close to the guy selling it. I gave him the info and asked him if he wanted to check it out. He was also restoring a car for his Dad and said he wouldn't mnd putting in a 455.

Never did hear back what happened on that because right about then, I got into rebuilding the front end of my car. Another project in itself that turned out really nice but took over 3 months.

Right now I'm torn between rebuilding the original 350 in the spring or finding another 455 project.
What I've learned: some confidence, how to teardown a block.
What I need: building and assembly skills with a motor. I'll obviously have to buy some specialized tools. Anyone with experience can feel free to chime in and suggest resources and tool options. I would like the car to have either it's 350 with a bump in HP, probably stay with flat tappet lifters though, or a 455 with around 400hp and maybe a 200R4. IIRC they are about the same length as the TH350 and should bolt right up without having to change the driveshaft?

MDchanic

Sorry to hear about that, Allan. I'm sure you'll find another, though - these things are everywhere, and if you're planning on a total rebuild, it doesn't matter much what it comes out of or what shape it's in (within limits, as we have seen...).

For your uses - occasional pleasure driving and shows - I'd recommend the 455, as it will be easier and cheaper to get more out of, and a few fewer MPG won't bother you.

Just keep your eyes open - they're out there (and probably watching you )!

- Eric

Allan R

Thanks bud,
I'm a little confused though, how would it be easier and cheaper with a 455? Parts still plentiful? Or were you referring to the trans? I would customize the 455 a bit to meet the hp needs I'm looking for out of it.

If I go with the 455/200R4 (I think they call it a 700 or L460E? now) that would probably get me the extra mpgs but I'd also change out the rear end. Jim M (Monzaz) sold me a reconditioned series 2 posi - bushings already pressed on. I was originally going to go 350/350 with 3:23 gears, but if I go with the 455 I'll probably put in 3:42s.

I thought it would be the other way around - with a 350/350 being more economical, but probably only if I kept the trans and rear end constants the same for each engine?

This is still on the horizon but any thoughts you can give me would be appreciated as part of the planning.

MDchanic

Just my own personal opinion, but I'd say the 455 is better for your application because you can get more power out of it with less modification.
To get 350 reliable, useable HP out of a 350 would require a number of modifications, but you should be able to get that from a 455 essentially dead stock.
To get 400HP from a 350, you'd have to start running in a significantly higher rev range, and making mods to support that, whereas from a 455, it would still be no problem.
Others on this board will be able to tell you how they got a reliable 450HP from a 350, but brace yourself when they start listing the expenses. From a 455, no problem.

As for the trans, from what little I know, a modified 200R4 is probably perfect for you.

Not sure of your rationale for this idea - I'd think that going with the lower 3.42 gear for the shorter-stroke 350 or the higher 3.23 with the longer stroke 455 would make more sense.
Also, unless you're planning to race it, I don't think you need a rear that will put your revs in the stratosphere. You'll enjoy the ride more if she's not screaming.

- Eric

Allan R

I'm sure I can find a 200R4 in the boneyard. Might be alot of fun dragging it home and rebuilding it (my Mrs will probably kill me, but what's new there? )

re: gears. I haven't actually thought it through as you can tell. I think the numbers came to me from stock engine/trans selections. Most of the 72 350 442s had 3:23 gears and the 455's had 3:42s IIRC. Anyway, at this point in time there's still lots to decide. Heck, I might even go with 3:08's, they're a fabulous gear with plenty of versatility.

re: 455 vs 350. What you say makes perfect sense. I'm not in this to spend a LOT of money. Do you know if the 455 weighs a lot more than a 350? Only reason I'm asking is I don't know if that means I might have to change out the front springs.

MDchanic

Off the top of my head, I think the difference is something like 75 pounds.

You should definitely change your front springs if you go with a big block, unless you prefer the fashionable "my springs are all broken and I can't go into driveways" look that some here seem to like.

- Eric

442_Mustang

Unless you go with aluminum heads and intake on the 455... I never weighed it but I went from the stock 350/4bbl to a 455 with Edelbrock heads and intake with headers and I know my car actually sits higher in front now. Plus, they are a bit sexier

Lady72nRob71

Do it - it will be both fun and educational. You can even do that inside over your long winter. That's what bathtubs are for...

455 needs heavier springs - sorry, not what you wanted to hear.
Had you installed the new Moog HD springs, you could get away with it.
But admit it - you liked fighting with the springs!
At least it should come apart easier and it will be clean.

Vistabrat72

Sorry to hear about the 455 engine you got Allan. Unfortunately purchasing an engine out a car can be a pig in a poke at times. The 455 engine and transmission I got late this summer was one that had been sitting in a shed for many years, the owner was going to put the unit into his '68 convertible Cutlass but circumstance and direction of life changed this for him. He knew nothing about the engine really, as he purchased the engine off of somebody else, such as the mileage, what it came out of. All that was known is that it was an 'F' block with 'G' heads, in other words, a '71 offering. The fellow who I got it from put oil in the cylinders from the start, but never turned it over. So I turned it over 2 times (it was free from the start, a good sign) to be sure valves were not stuck, etc. Then proceeded to hook up booster cables from the Vista Cruiser and crank the thing over. It cranked and sounded like it had compression, which later tests proved right. What 'sold' me on the engine was the fact it was a 'cut out', meaning it had the throttle cable attached, cut in the middle, the battery cables and engine wiring, etc. I could not imagine anybody taking a useless lump out of a car, it would have to be at least rebuildable, and this is what the engine was purchased as, an engine that turned over. My worries are: When he delivered it, and it got tilted over at a steep angle, really ugly rusty looking liquid came out of the cut off lower rad hose, and it had that rusty stink. It appeared it was not drained properly when removed. Looking into the block where the water pump holes are, and down the coolant passages are where the heads fasten, some spots look alright, others look rusted, and sludge came out going 'glop, glop', glop' from the drain bungs on the sides. No oil, just sludge. I am only hoping, that despite the rust in the coolant circuit, the decent compression is saying the block is ok. I guess when the block goes in to be checked and cleaned, the machine shop will let me know. If it is bad, it looks like there will be a pile of low mileage (no ridge at all in the cylinders, and bearings look very nice) parts sitting around waiting for a new block. The story of this adventure will start to be posted in a little while.

As for the Turbo 350 versus the Turbo 200-R4, they are just about the same length, and the yokes fit from one to another. The major thing is the rear mount position. The 200-R4 is almost right in match to a Turbo-400, only requiring the elongating of cross member to frame holes for proper fitment. I lucked out by having an original Turbo-400 so the mounting was easy. If I remember correctly the recipe is this: I think it has to do with the frame of the car, having mounting holes for various placements of said cross member. I am sure this is it for my 1970 Vista Cruiser had the Turbo 350 go sour, and what a poor college student had at the time was fellow gear head friends, one who had a long-tail Turbo-400 to go on the car. Vista Cruisers came with long-tail Turbo 350's due to the long wheel base. So the summary is: Turbo 200-R4 fits in with the cross member placed in the Turbo-400 slots. Drive shaft in all likelihood can be left alone.

As a footnote to fellow Vista Cruiser owners, there is a caveat in a 200-R4 swap that may or may not be annoying: In my case, because of the 200-R4 being shorter then my original 400, I needed a longer drive shaft. With this, because of drive line angles now, I believe the car now needs a double universal joint much like the full-size GM's had in the early '70's. There is a slight vibration at 70 that has not been gotten rid of despite of re-balancing of the drive shaft, tires, and other verifications. The benefits of the swap far outweigh this minor nuisance. Regards, Howie

Allan R

Yeah, I was thinking aluminum intake, possibly stock heads with headers. That would make the weight almost dead even? No plans for aluminum heads - that's $$$ that's not in the budget. I was thinking of roller rocker arms and roller camshaft, are they somewhat noisier? From what I've seen the rockers are much easier to set the lash on but are taller and will hit a stock VC? I have headers for the 350 (still NIB) that I never installed. Would 350 headers also work on 455s?

Glad I don't have to take a bath at your place
You're right about spring changeout, it would be a breeze now. IF I need to do it. With lighter components on the 455 that might change the playing field a bit
I liked fighting with the springs?? Master Kenobi, you must have been out on the town with Jar Jar Binks last night and been swayed by the dark side......I'm looking for a way to do this without having to changeout the springs.

So a 200R4 is a direct bolt in for the TH350? Just move the cross member to the 400 position? I like the idea that I don't have to touch the driveshaft. It's balanced and runs perfectly.