scooter123

He guys now that I have the 461 engine running its time to tune it!!

So I took it for a spin this afternoon and didnt go far and i had engine ping .....my set up is 10:1 speed pro pistons...0.030 over...block decked and heads comp cam 262h.....Im not realy sure of my total compression as it was not measured to the cc.

My car has a full tank of regular 87 octane fuel which I figured it would not like so I added some octane boost and now have my inital timing set around 14 deg and its better but still getting somw slight ping.

will premium fuel make it run much better or is the regular fuel with octane boost the same as running premium???

oldcutlass

I'd run the highest octane available for now. Also you may want to disconnect your vacuum advance for now.

442rocketdave

With 10 to 1 and a decked block and heads and 4 degrees advance in the timing chain you are probably at 10.75 to 1 and with the crappy gas with ethanol and its more than 10%!!! I would run the 93 octane and add octane booster you might try to set the initial at between 10 and 12 and see how it runs, you have to find that sweet spot for your particular engine. Remember the gas is really not what it used to be. In the old days I can remember pumping Sunoco 260 blue and it had over 100 octane and man did my car run good!!! But those days are gone!! Since I will only drive my 442 on weekends and to shows or the drags occasionally I am going to run Sunoco racing fuel mixed with 93 octane real gas that we can buy here for 4.65 a gal. the race fuel is 6.50 a gallon for 100 octane and 110 octane is 8.00 a gallon. Good luck on the tuning. Also I used to have real good luck with Autolite #85 plugs on the street.

scooter123

thanks guys!! I will just have to put around town and on the highway till I burn off this crapy gas.....then fill with highest octane

MDchanic

I'm dialing mine in now, too, 10.25:1 with 93 in the tank, set to 34° all in at 3,000 RPM, and it pings on hard acceleration.

I've got about a quarter tank, and I've been adding 100 Octane Sunoco to it a gallon at a time to see if it reduces the knock. Once I know how much race gas it takes to quiet it down, I can start backing off the timing and find a compromise I'm happy with.

- Eric

cutlassefi

Where did you get this info? How does advancing the cam raise STATIC compression ratio?. With all due respect I think you may be talking out of your butt on this one.

With that piston and even with a 0 deck and the heads milled to 75cc he'll have less that 10.2:1. So please explain your post. To get to the 10.75:1 you spoke of he would have had to mill the heads to less than 70cc. And again that's with a 0 deck.

Scooter - you'll need to run 91 or better mainly because of the small cam coupled with probably 9.75:1 or better.
Make sure you run the coldest plug possible without fouling and check your air/fuels to make sure it's not too lean.

Hope this helps.

Octania

"check your air/fuels to make sure it's not too lean."

I would LOVE to learn how to do this

Pretty sure my 403 is running way too rich. The jets vs needles diff ended up about 0.030" instead of the 0.020" the original 403 carb used.

cutlassefi

Plenty of websites that show how to read plugs.

coppercutlass

Golden brown is good. White is lean and carbon build up is rich. Don't confuse a wet plug for and oil soaked plug. That's the basics. If not any repair manual chiltons usually has how to read plugs in the back of the book

MDchanic

The thing about reading plugs, is that it will give you a general sense of how things are going, or, in the case of things that can change plugs fairly quickly, a sense of how things are JUST before you turned the motor off.

To read a plug for full-throttle acceleration, you pretty much have to floor it, then turn off the key and switch into Neutral at the same time and coast to a halt, then pull a plug.
Ideally, the plug would be new, and you would cut its electrode in half and look at the color deep in the recess.



- Eric

scooter123

Thanks for all the info guys...I bought these plugs today but did not install them.....what are your thoughts on these plugs....good/bad if bad I can return them!!

I alos spoke to the guy at napa and he recomended two old school local mechanics that might be able to tune this thing right!!

image-2_zps20ca8f67.jpg

matt69olds

Without having the blueprint engine measurements to do the math I would bet the compression is around 10ish to 1.

Get the 87 octane out of there and get some premium. Make sure the advance curve in the distributor is correct, 34-36 degrees of total timing with the vacuum advance unhooked should be a good starting place.

Make sure the car is calibrated correctly, if its too lean you will never get rid of the pinging. Is the cooling system keeping the engine cool?

Al Graaf

Al we want to do is drive them.........skip the 10.2 and 10.75 No offensense-Getting a little deep there...AL

oldcutlass

Scooter, your almost there, you put this engine together all by yourself. The tuning part is easy.

scooter123

ya true.....just have to get this gas out!!
well today I made a rookie move...went for a drive and I mounted the oil gauge just inside the hood and I didnt tie wrap it and it touched the manifold....all I could see was smoke behind me......I was thinking the worst...lol but i made it to my inlaws and I had my old oil pressure switch in the car!!!

What do most guys use.....do ya trust this plastic hose *****??

oldcutlass

I've used the plastic hose for years with no issues. There is a similar setup using copper tube.

MDchanic

+1.

- Eric

coppercutlass

I like the copper tube but i did use plastic for years.

442rocketdave

CutlasEFI I was not inferring that the 4 degrees in the timing chain altered the compression ratio but its effect on timing and the CRAP GAS that we all suffer with, my estimates on the CR is from the pistons he used with the fact he had his block decked and heads milled. Usually this plus the head gaskets he used equals out to between 10.25 to 10.75 CR. His timing in the distributor and his fuel ratio is also factors but with 87 octane he is bound to have pinging until he gets good gas and he would have to use alot of octane booster to compensate. I will call you soon on those 400 pistons, Sorry I some times type fast and I dont proof read enough.

442rocketdave

Scooter you will have to post a video of how it runs when you get those little bugs worked out! We all have them when we rebuild a motor and break it in, those Gremlins are always there!! I agree with Oldcutlass you built it and you CAN TUNE IT!!!

scooter123

going to pick up a pump tomorrow to get this regular gas out to see what happens!!

It seems as though the car has half the power it had before I did the rebuild....right now my initial timing is at 14 deg....still getting some pinging on hard acceleration.....when I say hard, I have not been out driving the crap out of it. I also checked compression and have 160psi .....which I think is good!!!

with the old set up I could hit it in drive and it would leve a mark about 50ft long.....for some reason I dont think it will do it now with the set up I now have.

Could I need a bigger carb???? Stall converter???

thanks for all the help guys

oldcutlass

Pump? What happened to old fashioned siphoning? Any way couple of things, ya gotta walk before you can run, the engine isn't broken in yet, your timing is not lined out, and ya got crummy gas. Patience!

scooter123

Very true.....I will get this fuel out today and take it one step at a time

cutlassefi

Well I assumed he's using the Speed Pro L2323, is that correct Scooter?

If so then that's an 18cc dish coupled with the fact that those pistons are .015 shorter than virtually every other performance 455 piston out there will make it difficult to achieve 10.75:1. Even with a 0 deck (and because that piston is shorter he'll have to take a bunch off the deck to get there) and heads milled down to 75cc, he's still at less than 10.25:1. That's why I pointed that out.

That piston is listed at 10.0:1 but unless you do those other things, it's really closer to 9.75:1, at least.

Thanks.

scooter123

The pistons are sealed power part # 369p...............0.030 over

442rocketdave

In any case you have good compression with a 160 reading and thats good considering your not broke in yet and like OLdcutlass said PATIENCE you will get those bugs worked out and I bet you can roast those tires in a couple of weeks!! It critical to have the advance curve set right in your distributor and I would do as one of the other members said unhook and PLUG your dist. plug the vacuum side. It may not be as peppy but it will stop the ping hopefully. When timing marks dont seem to help I always power time my engines by revving it to 3000 rpm and move the distributor advance until it starts to run a little rough and then I back it off a little and drive it, if it still not running like I want I do it again and back it off a little more until she smooths out and quits pinging. Also MOROSO used to make a real good octane booster in the gallon and it really worked. But some AVIATION fuel can help also.

cutlassefi

With 160# of cranking you should be able to run 91 with little to no problems. Double check the total timing, vacuum advance etc.

That piston is another .015 shorter than the forged one. That just about cancels out the smaller dish, unless you surfaced the block all the way to a 0 deck. Couple that with stock or nearly stock heads and the 160# seems about right for a compression ratio that's closer to 9.5:1. That's what the math supports as well.

Let us know how it runs once the fuel is switched out.
And sorry, don't use avgas. It's very dry and not well suited to everyday automotive engines.

scooter123

well tonight I removed all the regular gas using a flown-go and then took me gas can to the petro station and filled 20 litres of 91 oct.

I put the 20 litres in the tank and took the car for a little run but im still getting engine ping. Now there would still have been some old gas left in the bottom of the tank... so maybe if I fill the tank with 91 oct it might be a little better!!

So here is my next issue, I pulled plug 1 and 2 and they both look wat too lean. I have a edelbrock 650...I think, the front I.d spot has been milled off. Is there any other way to tell what carb I have...numbers on the rods??
Also I think I read somewhere that its not good to run a engine lean these plugs have about 20km on them.
So how will I fix this lean condition...change rods.....jets??????

image-2_zpsf89a4a37.jpg

442rocketdave

You have to read them down inside with a light but with those looking that bright white it looks a little lean, I would try getting the timing right and then richen the carb a little. A 650 is ok for the street, I personally like 750s or a 780cfm for a 455 thats 030 over.

timothypaul

What about using something along the lines of this?

http://www.jegs.com/i/Auto+Meter/105/5678/10002/-1

A friend of mine has something similar in his 66 GTO and loves it.

scooter123

jsut a little update.....got all new gas..91oct and a bottle of lucas boost and the inital timing at 12deg and total at 34deg and im still getting lot of engine ping.

Not too sure what else to do with this

coppercutlass

Try a bigger carb. I think the edlebrock is too small. I had a 600 cfm on a std bore 350 and my plugs where on the lean side not too lean but just enough to show on the plugs.

scooter123

ya might have to go that route.....maybe a 750 cfm

oldcutlass

Is your vacuum advance connected?

cutlassefi

OK. so are you suggesting that by simply changing to a larger carb that will cure his proposed lean issue? Christ another thoughtless post!
If a larger carb isn't jetted right then guess what, he'll still have a lean issue. How about maybe just rejetting the carb he has first?

You have a tendency to respond with, at best, incomplete thoughts. Please take 2 seconds and post stuff that makes sense for crissakes.

Scooter- at what rpm does your total advance come in? You may try slowing the curve first, as well as a possible jet change.

Thanks

scooter123

Ok so would this jet kit be a good place to start.... Edelbrock part # 1487
Also..... As for the advance all in .... I think you mean where the balancer stops jumping around is at 3000 rpm

coppercutlass

I was just suggesting he try a bigger carb as I think his engine will benifit from abigger carb. I don't think you would personally suggest a 650 cfm carb for a 455. Mark you can go pound sand and go f^%$ yourself. Also considering the fact you guys gave me crap about running a 650 and said a 750 is much better for an sbo why is mmy suggestion bad ? Considering everyone said a 650 is a bit small.

MDchanic

First you need to get the balancer to stop doing that.

- Eric

442rocketdave

Eric is right!! The balancer may have slipped and I have seen them do that especially considering how old these parts are, on my last engine build I bought a new one and it was degreed all the way and it makes it so much easier to time and more accurate. On the carb issue you really need to go to a 750cfm when looking at the chart on a 461 cu engine at 5500 you need a larger carb!!! even at 5200!! With the chart based on your cubic inch displacement and rpm of 5500 you need at the least 722.5 cfm so if your ve was 90 you would need 780 cfm. For my engine 468 at 6800 I need 980 cfm.

ddd777

is that the same as this?
http://www.summitracing.com/parts/edl-6593