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Hello - I recently found what I believe to be a nicely restored Rallye 350 (link below). Does anyone with more knowledge than myself have comments/insights regarding this particular vehicle? I am told the motor and trans match VIN and will verify with my own eyes. Hoping a Rallye expert is active on this forum and can help me out with critical insights/questions/etc. Any and all input is greatly appreciated as I am currently scheduled to fly out and see the car on Friday AM.
Documentation is a must for a big money car. Hard to prove 100% authenticity without it. That's with original documents not reproductions.
There are several specific things that help authenticate a 350.
What is the build date on the Fisher cowl tag?
The M in the vin is encouraging as all R350s were Lansing built cars.
The vin range is in the correct range for a R350.
What does the paint code look like on the Fisher cowl tag?
Get a pic of the Fisher tag to see the rivets.
Dig deep to look for exterior colors other than Sebring. Way up in the trunk, inside behind the rear seat, under the rockers by the pinch weld, above the head liner, rear inner deck & sail panel areas, behind the door and rear quarter cards, thou the doors could have been replaced same for the fenders etc...A rotisserie restoration can completely cover up a fake with another color thou...If a car had the right vin & fisher tag.
If you zoom in on the photo below, you should be able to see the difference. Notice the thinner edge, lower profile, and larger inside diameter hole in the original rivet. At this point the trim tag on the car in question does not mean much as there is nothing directly tying it to the vin. I think you will need original paperwork to prove what the car is. Otherwise it is just a nice 70 cutlass at this point. You will probably want to see pics of the vin rivets given what the trim tag looks like.
Last edited by Loaded68W34; June 21st, 2023 at 12:03 PM.
It appears to have an aluminum W-31 intake. It should be cast iron and painted gold like the rest of the motor. Should these cars have dual exhaust manifolds or did the passenger side have a block off as seen on this car? Overall, the car does look very clean.
It sure is pretty. Legit Rallye 350? Hard to say. That car looks so over restored to me. You never ever see a Rallye 350 that loaded. I personally have never seen a factory dual gate Rallye 350 car. Let alone all the options on that car. Rallye 350 cars were generally strippers. That car is loaded. I always say it. Show me before pictures. I also ask. How much?
Quick update ... i did receive a lot of restoration pics and you can see the original color was Sebring yellow from pics inside the car without the interior. I attached a few pics, and waiting on "before pics" of exterior.
A restoration is not a valid reason to violate odometer tampering laws. I have seen titles recalled and branded as a result of a dealer getting caught. Buyer beware.
@Dynoking - I made the assumption it was re-set at time of restoration and could be incorrect (i.e., maybe it's "rolled over"). I will ask for clarification, but the overall point is nobody is pretending this car as an ultra low mile survivor.
A restoration is not a valid reason to violate odometer tampering laws. I have seen titles recalled and branded as a result of a dealer getting caught. Buyer beware.
Is there sticker or paperwork somewhere saying the speedometer/odometer was replaced? If it says "add ???? miles" to the odometer, there may not be a violation involved if the numbers were changed due to replacement/repairs. It helps to get all the facts, but you are correct, buyer beware.
I've confirmed the odometer was replaced at time of restoration. The comment from consigner is as follows: "The Miles are since the work was completed. In North Carolina, if you spend over half the value of a classic you are allowed to have a speedo set to “0” and the DMV records it".
I am trying to verify if that information is true with regard to North Carolina, but haven't found anything to deny or confirm thus far.
In most states, titles are marked as mileage exempt on vehicles 10 years and older. Once the title is marked as "exempt" there is no way to have it printed with actual mileage again so the odometer reading is meaningless.
I've confirmed the odometer was replaced at time of restoration. The comment from consigner is as follows: "The Miles are since the work was completed. In North Carolina, if you spend over half the value of a classic you are allowed to have a speedo set to “0” and the DMV records it".
I am trying to verify if that information is true with regard to North Carolina, but haven't found anything to deny or confirm thus far.
Do you live in NC? You need to look into the laws in your state as that is where the new title will be issued. PA for example will simply print mileage exempt on the title as I stated above. Ask the seller what the current title says. If it is exempt, that is what the new titlle will say. At this point, the car has been completely redone so original mileage is not a factor. Again, I am speaking about PA in specific, but most states have a mileage exemption rule for vehicles over a certain age. PA did just recently change this law to 20 years for any vehicle built in 2011 or newer.
@Loaded68W34 - thanks for your continued input! The current NC title reads mileage exempt and my state (MN) will also read mileage exempt for a vehicle of this age. Heck, I just purchased an ultra low mile 2009 Hennessey SRT Jeep and they made me put mileage exempt even on a vehicle that is only 15 years old!
Yes, alot of people do not understand federal/ state laws for things like mileage and lemon laws. On a car like this, the only possible legal issue would be where a seller represents a car as original low mileage that is not, and even then it may be difficult for a buyer get any recourse in court for fraud. The VIN is another story. The trim tag rivets are not a big deal legally as that tag has no bearing on identifying the vehicle. If the VIN tag is held on with pop rivets rather than the correct star rivets that may present a problem. FYI: If you didn't already know, the star head on the VIN tag rivets can only be seen from under the dash.
You need to be darn sure about the laws. The story they gave about restoration costs and allowing them to reset the odometer flies in the face of the current NC laws. I'd ask to see that law they're spouting off about in writing. It might be, but I can't find it. I'd throw the BS flag on that heap of dog crap excuse until they could come up with a statute, but they may be able to skirt it due to other means. Of course, it only matters if anyone cares.
§ 20-343. Unlawful change of mileage.
It is unlawful for any person or his agent to disconnect, reset, or alter the odometer of any motor vehicle with the intent to change the number of miles indicated thereon. Whenever evidence shall be presented in any court of the fact that an odometer has been reset or altered to change the number of miles indicated thereon, it shall be prima facie evidence in any court in the State of NC General Statutes - Chapter 20 Article 15 2 North Carolina that the resetting or alteration was made by the person, firm or corporation who held title or by law was required to hold title to the vehicle in which the reset or altered odometer was installed at the time of such resetting or alteration or if such person has more than 20 employees and has specifically and in writing delegated responsibility for the motor vehicle to an agent, that the resetting or alteration was made by the agent. (1973, c. 679, s. 1; 1979, c. 696.)
§ 20-346. Lawful service, repair, or replacement of odometer.
Nothing in this Article shall prevent the service, repair, or replacement of an odometer, provided the mileage indicated thereon remains the same as before the service, repair, or replacement. Where the odometer is incapable of registering the same mileage as before such service, repair, or replacement, the odometer shall be adjusted to read zero and a notice in writing shall be attached to the left door frame of the vehicle by the owner or his agent specifying the mileage prior to repair or replacement of the odometer and the date on which it was repaired or replaced. Any removal or alteration of such notice so affixed shall be unlawful. (1973, c. 679, s. 1.)
The main point is, there's nothing in the NC vehicle mileage act that allows the odometer to be changed (or operated with it disconnected) regardless if the odometer disclosure is exempt or not. Basically, if you mess with the odometer, and don't attach the notice to the left door frame indicating a reset, you're in violation of the statute.
Indeed, if a car is brought into NC for title and it's over 10 years old, or even if you transfer a title of a car over 10 years old, the odometer disclosure statement is not required. So that could open the floodgates for fraud. Thing is, the state doesn't seem to care about older cars. Not going to say it isn't possible, but I guarantee you there will be some dough-dick down the line somewhere that will claim it's original mileage because some other dough-dick said it was who sold it to him. I'll bet dime to donuts there isn't any odometer adjustment sticker on that car anywhere. Again, buyer beware.
How much do they want for this car?
My money is on this car never came the way it sits. This car is an overloaded Cutlass. If it was an original Rallye 350 they would be able to prove it. If you just want a cool looking car this is your car. That's what it was built to sell as.
Last edited by no1oldsfan; June 22nd, 2023 at 12:51 PM.
I don't like the cowl tag rivets. They are not GM rivets.
It's possible the tag was removed for restoration, BUT why unless the cowl had major surgery? I'd call the seller out on that.
That - - on the tag indicates a special order color (Sebring?). Any special order color could be indicated by a - - .
Could just be a specially ordered Cutlass that was built during the correct build date range for a R350.
The guy that restored the car knew enough to find a car in the correct date range built in Lansing.
269986 Fisher and 372040 Vin.... is this plausible???
50K for a fully restored Cutlass or R350 is cheap. Keep in mind EVERYTHING has DOUBLED in price in the last 2 years...thanks to out-of-control inflation.
R350 provenance would need to be proven with docs. You will need to prove it if you ever sell it or want to insure it to R350 provenance.
If you can get it for 40 you wouldn't be upside down.
Why would someone go through this much trouble to fake a R350. Its not a W30 stick vert...thats a payday.
This is a legit Fisher cowl tag. The holes are generally filled with calk.
I don't like the cowl tag rivets. They are not GM rivets.
It's possible the tag was removed for restoration, BUT why unless the cowl had major surgery? I'd call the seller out on that.
That - - on the tag indicates a special order color (Sebring?). Any special order color could be indicated by a - - .
Could just be a specially ordered Cutlass that was built during the correct build date range for a R350.
The guy that restored the car knew enough to find a car in the correct date range built in Lansing.
269986 Fisher and 372040 Vin.... is this plausible???
50K for a fully restored Cutlass or R350 is cheap. Keep in mind EVERYTHING has DOUBLED in price in the last 2 years...thanks to out-of-control inflation.
R350 provenance would need to be proven with docs. You will need to prove it if you ever sell it or want to insure it to R350 provenance.
If you can get it for 40 you wouldn't be upside down.
Why would someone go through this much trouble to fake a R350. Its not a W30 stick vert...thats a payday.
This is a legit Fisher cowl tag. The holes are generally filled with calk.
While you make good points, I believe it's very plausible that the tag was removed and when replaced, it was done with the sub-standard rivets. It's quite possible the cowl prep was easier without the tag in place? Who knows? But yeah, that'd be a question needing answered. The restoration pics, although not 100% guarantee, appear to be valid factory type of overspray in yellow to help shore up the claim. Obviously without more paperwork it's always suspect, but at least we know for sure it's a 1970 Lansing built Cutlass with a black vinyl bucket interior and special color. Not too many going to be like that.
Terry, good luck in your viewing of this car, and hope it's the one that you want. But for that kind of coin, I'd need a tad more valid paperwork to convince me it's worth that.
There was a guy in my hometown that had an R350 since new and it was loaded with options and had a floor shift and buckets, although I don't believe it had a dual gate. May have, just don't recall. Even power windows, which was kinda not a very popular option for that era. Have no idea if he added any of that crap, but that was circa 1975 when I first met him and scoped out his car, as I was just starting to get interested in messing with cars. He got married soon after that and the R350 was gone and in its place was a new 77 Chrysler Cordoba. No idea whatever happened to that car.
There was a guy in my hometown that had an R350 since new and it was loaded with options and had a floor shift and buckets, although I don't believe it had a dual gate. May have, just don't recall. Even power windows, which was kinda not a very popular option for that era. Have no idea if he added any of that crap, but that was circa 1975 when I first met him and scoped out his car, as I was just starting to get interested in messing with cars. He got married soon after that and the R350 was gone and in its place was a new 77 Chrysler Cordoba. No idea whatever happened to that car.
Cool story sad he got a 77 Cordoba yikes. I knew of quite a few Rallye 350's when I was kid. Everyone that I knew of was a stripper. All were bench seat column shift cars. As a kid I never saw a bucket seat Rallye 350.
This car looks like a very well restored car. Over restored to me but like others have said. There was a lot of money put into that car. Authenticity doesn't seem to matter much anymore. If it were mine I would put a gold 455 in that in a minute.
I appreciate the continued responses from the group. @no1oldsfan - asking price is $49k.
Considering the high mark for a public sale of a Rallye 350 is about $44k for a four speed post coupe, I'd say they probably have some room to negotiate
Last edited by allyolds68; June 23rd, 2023 at 08:29 AM.
June 21st, 2023, 09:14 AM
