bainer1290

Thought I would post some progress pics, got the interior swapped over form the parts car, painted the front of the frame and firewall, next is painting the rad support, installing the buckets and then onto rebuilding the control arms and steering linkage.

Allan R

Missed some of the action - was away in Cancun.

WOW!! We bought my 72 Cutlass S off the lot at Edmonton Motors. It's still at the same location but is now a Chevy Cadillac dealer. Can I ask you a big favor? Can you send me a High Res copy of that build sheet? I collect stuff like that for reference material. If you can LMK and I'll Pm you my email address.

Can't read the gear ratio on those, but can read the Richmond stamping. That means that someone has been in there already because they aren't the original gears that came with the car. You can probably find the box that show the gears on the build sheet. Should be box 11. There will be a 3 letter code separated by a dash. What are the other numbers on the ring gear? Likely you have a 3.73:1?

re: the AC unit? I wouldn't use that for the Heater only car. There were more non AC cars delivered to AB than you can shake a stick at. Too bad I didn't know you last summer. I could have got the parts you need from 2 71 Supremes in the pic n pull. One more thing about the donor car. There are ALWAYS plenty of peeps who need the cowl to dash area, and rear deck and trunk lips. Many parts of the US and Canada don't have the 'drier' weather we do in AB, so don't crush those parts. Get a sawzall and cut them out. Betcha a $ that someone is going to post a query looking for them before the summer is out. A very good piece to have for sale.

bainer1290

Hey Allan,

You bet I can scan you that build sheet, pm me your email I think I have it from that cc servo but can't remember what it was.

I ended up selling the car to another guy who needed quarters etc so it should be put to good use.

I ended up counting the gears in the rear end 10 and 37 so I would say that is a 3.70 posi, apparently the previous owner of the parts car had it installed just before he rolled the car so it should be fairly fresh.

oldsmobiledave

Do yourself a favor & before you start building your 455 go talk to Wayne Joss @ Joss Technical in Lethbridge.




http://josstechnical.com/


Wayne is a long time friend of mine & a 1st rate engine builder. He provides design, build, engine & chassis dyno services & Oldsmobiles are his passion.


Wayne built both my stroker engines plus the 468 BBO in my p/u. Your time with Wayne will be very well spent.

bainer1290

Hi Dave,

Thanks for that info, I am already mid build with CEP Auto in town, I have done some work with them in the past and they have been around for a long time with a few "old boys" working in the back. No offense on that, its more of a comment since those guys have all the experience with these motors.

I would have looked at Joss if I would have known about them prior, maybe I will check with them for my heads when I get to them next.

Thanks for that info anyways,
Rob

bainer1290

Made some more progress, replaced all the front bushings, ball joints, shocks, wheel bearings and all the steering linkage. Relocated the brake proportion valve as it seems to be in the way of most headers, easier to do that now than once the engine is in... Also ended up bending up new front brake lines since the passenger one was completely pinched off from previous owner's engine install/removal. Also found out the car had 2 left calipers on it, so got rebuilt right and left ones since they were cheap when I got the new pads at the parts store. I guess it would have worked with 2 lefts but you would need to bleed it off the car with the valve up.

I also had to improvise to get the spring compressed a little so I could attach the ball joints to the spindle, I used a heavy strap and the floor jack. It seemed to work well but do it at your own risk, probably would have been better to use a spring compressor or have the engine installed to have the extra weight.

The engine is getting close to complete so next steps will be assembling the top end of it. Also still need to swap the rear axle and replace the bushings/shocks/brakes on the rear too.

pfergy600

Allan R, I have a 72 base model cutlass with a 350 eng, I jhave this cannister system also. My fuel pump only has one fuel line. I am in the process of switching out my engine for a 455, and that engine has 2 fuel lines (one is a return line) .. I am also putting in a new fuel tank a new fuel sending unit which also has 2 lines (one return line). My question is will this CannisterVapor thing still work with my new set up? Hopefully that is not too confusing..

bainer1290

I wonder what the criteria was for the double vs single fuel line? My car was originally a 350 2 bbl dual exhaust but it has the return line. Or was it a difference between the base Cutlass and Cutlass S?

johnnyjaws

I sure could use that center consoule want to sell it lol

bainer1290

sorry keeping it... are they tough to find?

oldsmobiledave

Are you sure your car came with dual exhaust from the factory?. I have never seen a 2 bbl car with factory duals.

bainer1290

I could be misaken but I thought when I looked up the vin the 5th digit was J, got this from 442.com for 1972 models. Does dual exh. stand for dual exhaust or ?

5th digit - Engine code -
H = 350-2bbl V8 160hp
J = 350-2bbl V8 175 hp (dual exh.)
K = 350-4bbl V8 180 hp
M = 350-4bbl V8 200 hp (dual exh.)
U = 455-4bbl V8 250 hp (dual exh.)
V = 455-4bbl V8 270 hp (dual exh.)
X = 455-4bbl V8 300 hp (W30)

Allan R

What year is the 455 you're dropping in? re: the cannister? Yes. There is a great exploded view diagram of the cannister vent routing in the CSM if you need references. Far as I know the 455's all got the return line back to the cannister. Not on 350's though. They all use the same gas tank (GM34R) with 3 vent lines. Only real difference is in the senders. Your original sender would only have 1 line which is the fuel. The 455's would have 2 lines on the sender unit - one for fuel delivery and one for fuel return.

Dave, he's right. In this case a J code engine did come from the factory with N10 option in 72

Rob, you're right. The J and M codes were dual exhaust 350's. Olds never had a 'true' 350 exhaust manifold though and resorted to plugging the crossover pipe hole to create the N10 exhaust.

IIRC, the U,V and X codes all got dual exhaust automatically from the factory. V and X code cars also automatically got the cutout bumpers with trumpet exhaust. I believe the U code cars got the standard bumper and down turned exhausts, but they should also have the W Z exhaust manifolds.

As an FYI, Thorntons now makes a 'Junior' true dual exhaust system for the Olds 350. Last time I checked they were 299. plus the ride. Haven't heard a lot from anyone who might have bought them though.

pfergy600

My Vin is 3F87H2R171636 , just a base model 350 single exhaust, 2bbl..

1964f-85

My 72 Cutlass S came with a 350 2bbl, and the hood inserts. Body looks solid, i used extra fenders to patch the quarter lips, they are nearly identical.

bainer1290

Sounds the same as what my car was born with a 350 2bbl, dual exhaust, hood with the inserts. But I guess mine could have been changed along the way too no real way to tell on the hood...

Allan R

Ok, that means it's a 'base' Cutlass. Here's how you VIN decodes:

3 - Oldsmobile division of GM
F - Cutlass (basically the f-85 in a 2 door. f-85 2 doors were badged just as 'Cutlass'
87 - 2 door Holiday coupe
H - 350 2bbl rocket @160 hp, single exhaust
2 - year check digit (1972)
R - Assembly plant - Arlington TX
171636 - production sequence at Arlington.

Trivia - the Cutlass/Cutlass S basically shared the same body styling in both post and holiday coupes. The only real way to distinguish the trim levels was the (F/G) lettering in the VIN. The trim code for the car also determined what kind of door panel/seat trim patterns were used.

Arlington was also a plant known to periodically leave build sheets in the car; usual places: on top of gas tank, under parcel shelf behind dash panels. Worth a look.

If you can post a pic of your cowl tag, there's additional information that describes how your car left the factory.

bainer1290

Here's my cowl tag a little tough to read with the paint...

Are you able to decipher any of the options from this?

Body by Fisher
ST 72-33687 Z 094694 BDY
TR 943 A51 24 24 PNT
06C 405380 080150

VIN 3G87J2Z141329

Allan R

Rob? What's the VIN on your car? Far as I know, the only difference is it was built at Freemont instead of Arlington. Also - the Cutlass S automatically got the hood with 'faux louvers'. It was an upgrade (at extra cost) for Cutlass and Cutlass Supreme.

There is a way to tell if your hood is original. Can't remember if that build sheet is from your car or the donor. If it was your car shows it was not equipped with AC (option C60), so it will have rear cutouts at the cowl area (vents if you will). If it was AC it would NOT have the rear cowl vents in 1972. Look along the side of the hood and you should be able to find a stamping (like A12, W11 etc) The letter simply means the press the part was stamped on. The 2 numbers will indicate the month it was stamped. Once you find that, compare the stamping date (numbers) to the numbers on the A pillar just below the side of the dash . If that number matches within a week or two, it was likely the one that came on the car.

pfergy600

Here is my Cowl Tag:
Hopefully I find the build sheet on top of the gas tank when I remove it in the next 2 weeks, it looks original.. I am also half way done with removing the dash..

bainer1290

Allan

VIN of my car is 3G87J2Z141329, that build sheet was from the donor no build sheet for my actual car... The cowl below is from my actual car what info does it give?

Body by Fisher
ST 72-33687 Z 094694 BDY
TR 943 A51 24 24 PNT
06C 405380 080150

I assume the hood was original as the paint under the primer was the same but I guess it could have been replace/pained somewhere along the way but does not appear that way. More curious to see what options my car had from the cowl if it tells anything...

Allan R

Sure thing. Dang I had this all done and lost the whole post. Starting over...

ST 72 - 1972 model production. ***
3 - Oldsmobile division
3687 - Cutlass S Hardtop coupe body style
Z - Freemont production
BDY 094694 - body number assigned by Freemont Fisher body works. Not related to VIN
TR 943 - Blue naugahyde bucket seat car
A51 - RPO for Strato bucket seats (as mentioned above)
PNT 24 24 - Nordic blue upper and lower body
06C - Time build code for fisher body works. Car body was assembled in the 3rd week (C) of June (06) 1972. This is a very late production car for the 1972 model year, likely one of the last hundred or so Cutlass S's made at Freemont that year.
405380 080150 - production information related to build sheet boxes 1 and 9.

VIN defined: (there's going to be some duplication here, which is completely normal)
3 - Oldsmobile Division - GM
G - model - Cutlass S
87 - Body style; hardtop coupe
J - 350 4bbl with N10 dual exhaust
2 - 1972 model year
Z - Freemont production
141329 - Assembly sequence at Freemont. This was the 41,329th A body produced that year at Freemont. Production started at 100001 for all Olds A body production plants in 1972.

*** - Production for model years usually finished at the end of June/early July and the factory then ramped up for new models by changing out stamping dies and coordinating part delivery/inventory. Actual production of the Assembly line started in either late August or early September to build inventory for dealers, or fill customer orders. I believe the 405380 080150 numbers on your 1972 cowl tag indicate your car was originally a customer specific order. Not very many 72 cowl tags have that info.

bainer1290

Wow that was fast! Thank you very much for all that info gonna print that and add to the car's binder.

Allan R

Nice bit of documentation there. The service record clearly shows the original owner information along with the VIN and dealer zone/code. The protecto plate you have is in excellent condition and should be kept with the car to maintain its provenance. Do you also have the original owners manuals, warranty booklet and maintenance schedule? It should be part of a glove box package in a plastic envelope with compartments for everything.

You can correlate the VIN onto the POP. The other numbers you see there are the Dealer zone and code in Florida. The 00007 means the car was delivered into service on July 28, 72 with 7 miles registered on the odometer.



The cowl tag for your car decodes as follows:
ST 72 - 1972 model production
3 - Oldsmobile division
3287 - f85 2 door hardtop (badged as Cutlass)
R - Arlington TX production
BDY 05959 - body number assigned by Arlington Fisher body works. Not related to VIN
TRM 917 - White all vinyl trim
A52 -Split bench seat (no armrest)
PNT 26 A - Viking blue lower body, white vinyl roof
04C - Time build code. Produced in the 3rd week (C) of April (04) 1972
610. No idea

Your car was built 2 weeks after mine was, only mine was at Lansing. Compare your body number (05959) to mine (442325) and you can see the amount of production difference between the 2 plants.

pfergy600

VERY VERY COOL !!! Thanks Allan for the info, the 350 engine matched I guess..

pfergy600

Additional paperwork that was in the car.

bainer1290

Got some more painting done, not doing anything fancy just sanded the junk off and gave it a coat of Tremclad (aka Rustoleum).

Came across an interesting difference in the rear spring coils between the donor car (smaller spring) and the my actual car. Both cars were Cutlass S's, 350 auto only diff would be mine was an a/c car. Maybe mine had a hd suspension option or the springs could have been changed over the years too. The skinny spring is 0.53 inch diameter and the one form my car is 0.66 plus it has a few more coils. Anyone have any specs on springs?

Allan R

I think both of the cars have had the springs changed out. The one on the left for sure, the one on the right looks like it could be more of a stock replacement for OEM. Here's a comparison. My rear coils were changed out with OEM springs from GM back in 84. This pic shows 1 that is restored, and 1 awaiting the sandblaster and paint.

Going from memory, but I think the stock height was 17 1/4"?? Anyway, both of these were identical and after installation the car is at proper ride height.

bainer1290

That would make sense, the skinny ones looks newer as it is not as rusted but it really looks weak compared to the others, think I will paint up the thicker ones and see how the car looks once the engine is in. Both springs are close to the same height 14 inches, the front ones on my car were 17-1/8 so maybe that's where the 17 you are thinking of is from?

pfergy600

Just finished re-doing the entire rear end.

1964f-85

My 72 had a small "S" badge under the cutlass emblem on the fenders.

bainer1290

[QUOTE=Allan R;667760]What year is the 455 you're dropping in? re: the cannister? Yes. There is a great exploded view diagram of the cannister vent routing in the CSM if you need references. Far as I know the 455's all got the return line back to the cannister. Not on 350's though. They all use the same gas tank (GM34R) with 3 vent lines. Only real difference is in the senders. Your original sender would only have 1 line which is the fuel. The 455's would have 2 lines on the sender unit - one for fuel delivery and one for fuel return.

Hey Allan, just went back to this post and was re-looking at it. I was confused at the start because both the 72's that I looked at had 2 lines, one for fuel and one for vent, the fuel connected to the sender and the vent to the vapor canister. So when switching from the 350 to the 455 does there need to be a 3rd line to return fuel to a different type sender or can you use the same sender as a 350? The CSM looks to show 3 lines for some models and 2 for others... A pic of a 350 vs 455 fuel pump with the lines up front would help if anyone has one... Thank you

Allan R

Rob, it turns out that 350's and 455's could be delivered with either 2 or 3 connection systems. So you could install the 2 line system on a 455 with no problem it seems. My car is also a 350 and has the same 2 line system as yours. It's going to be difficult to find/share a pic of the fuel pump on a running car because it will likely be covered either by an Alt or AC pump bracket. There IS a pic of the 3 connection system in section 8, page 116 of the 72 Assembly manual if you have that.

I found this picture of a fuel pump for a 455 from Supercars Unlimited. It's for a non return line pump. My understanding for the return line is to help prevent vapor lock and keep the fuel flowing uninterrupted from the tank through the pump to carb.


This is the one with 3 connections:


Only thing to remember is the fuel senders. If you change to a 2 connection fuel pump, the sender would not change on your existing setup. If you changed to a 3 connection system, you would have to run a 3rd line to the rear and also install a 2 pipe fuel pump (supply/return). Likely more work than it's worth unless your car starts developing vapor lock.

bainer1290

Great info once again thank you Allan!!!

So the Vent line that comes up front what does it connect to you mentioned some sort of Carbon Canister? I don't have that so will need to track down one...

Allan R

Rob, the vent line you're talking about runs from the vent cannister to the front where the charcoal filter is. If you don't have the charcoal filter, you can simply truncate the line and not worry about it. That system is part of a very early emissions control system.

I'll attach some pics that show what it looks like. Also a picture that shows the hose connections under the rear of the car at the vent cannister.
1. Top of charcoal filter
2. side of filter
3. metal mounting bracket for filter

These are parts that I restored on my car so it shows stuff prior to the gas tank installation.

4 - vent cannister. It's behind the rear seat with connections under the car
5 - connections to all the steel lines (note: not tightened down yet)

The "U" shaped line is the one that goes to the emissions line (to the front of the engine compartment) that you could simply cap at the cannister tube and the steel line. Note: flip the last picture to see the same relationship of the hoses and vent tubes. I shot that on my back looking up from the other direction. That's why it looks 'backwards'.

bainer1290

Hi Allan,

Thanks for those pics they really help. So I can cap that emmissions line to completely block it off or should I put some sort of breather filter on there, not sure if it needs to be able to "vent" the tank. Or does the gas cap vent it? Thanks again

Allan R

Rob,
You can cap the emissions line right at the vent cannister (the CSM calls this a fuel standpipe). Don't put a breather filter on it. That will just allow gas vapor/fumes to accumulate under your car. The emission line basically transfers any heavy vapor fumes from the top of the standpipe to the charcoal filter where they in turn channelled to the carb via intake manifold vacuum. Since you aren't putting that setup into your car the line doesn't do anything, and an aftermarket carb likely doesn't have the port to connect the emission line to. There's a great pic of it on Page 8-3 of the 72 CSM.

The way I understand the standpipe is it's basically a surge protection system. The center pipe has a small hole (inside the standpipe) that allows fuel that accumulates in the bottom of the standpipe to drain back to the tank. Prior to 71 the fuel lines ran straight to the fuel pump from the tank (return and non return senders/fuel pumps). First evidence I can find of this system is 1971.

My understanding of the 71/72 gas cap is it's the principle component of venting the gas tank. It has a pressure valve built in to automatically allow outside air to enter the tank when tank vacuum becomes too high. If you check your cap, it should say "vented" somewhere on it. If it's the original cap look on the inside. You'll see a small plastic plunger in the center channel. When the vacuum draws the plastic plunger down, the outside air is vented into the tank through that opening.

1964f-85

Here is what my 72 S looked like when i sold it, easy to spot, it has zero body badging.

bainer1290

Thanks again Allan!

Nice 72 I think I am going then badge clean body route also...

bainer1290

Just to add...

The Carter website lists 2 fuel pumps for a 72 Cutlass 455. The M6109 (with return, 3 connections) and M6108 (no return, 2 connections) it differentiates by with or without a/c, the 3 connection was for cars with a/c.