76olds

Yes the starter sounds how ya say it wiwiwiwi iw ya , maybe a distributer gear ? oh wouldn't that be nice, better than a timing chain !!! I would still try the screw driver deal. Sorry guys

eazy

With a shot of starter fluid and the pedal to the floor?? I'm gonna charge the battery and get 5 gallons of fresh gas and give it a shot.

I'll try and get a better video this time.

MD: Not a chance...If I have to I'll just pull the motor out and keep on pretending that I know what I'm doing

MDchanic

If you pretend long enough, everyone will think you DO know what you're doing.

That's the principle of higher education.

- Eric

76olds

I would charge the battery back up, put a screw driver inside the butterfly opening it about 3/16, don't pump the gas , crank on it like an old ***** for 25 sec or so , if it don't start then pump it a few times after you figure all the fuel has dissipated. Can't harm it any trying it. If your are continuing with it tonight. Otherwise once it sits overnight use the screw driver pump it 2x and hold it to the floor till it starts. If no start chime back in .

steverw

It sounds like to me the motor is turning slow, very cold? new battery still may be weak. Maybe a bad starter. If your sure the accelerator pump is working as in you can see two streams of gas when you manually open the throttle......... then dont pump the gas pedal. If the choke is closed its already getting more gas. Floor the pedal once to set the choke, try it with a good battery, at most hold the pedal to the floor but dont pump it you will just flood it more. You may need to remove and clean/dry or replace your plugs. Its amazing what new plugs can do sometimes. Starting fluid is not a bad idea too. I watched the video again, it sounds like your battery is dying out fast, do a slow charge over night or take it back if its new they should replace it, not all new parts are necessarily good. I always have new alternators/starters checked before i leave with them, I have bought some bad ones. Batteries could just as easily be bad new. I can also see that infact the choke is closed and your pumping the crap out of it at the same time. Try not pumping it thats just flooding it, your plugs are probably swimming. Again clean/dry or replace them, get some starting fluid.

eazy

On the original incident when it didn't start the engine turned over after a few turns for about 2-3 seconds and the starter kept turning when i released the key. I couldn't keep the engine alive and the starter stayed running even until it was completely dead. I never got it to start after that.

76olds

Have you ever started a car with a screw driver at the starter ?

steverw

Check your starter wires at the starter be sure you didnt fry them, if so then correct that problem and continue on. If the starter is old you may want to start fresh with a rebuilt starter. If you do that be sure they check the new one before you leave with it. As I said I have gotten home with new (rebuilt) components before only to find they were no good. If can save you another trip to the parts store.

MDchanic

Whoa whoa whoa whoa whoa.

Explicate this please.

Are you saying that the starter stuck "On" and kept running until it had drained the battery?

Minor details like this may be important.

Anything else you've been hiding?

- Eric

76olds

LOL !! X2 their . Hit the starter with a hammer that should do it.

steverw

It does sound like some wires may have fried somewhere. At the starter? Ignition switch? This dosent sound good. I believe the ignition switch is mounted on the steering column under the dash. If the starter wires look good, and trace them out complete up to the junction on the drivers fender, then check under the dash too. Was there any smoke anywhere? Does it smell like anything burned?, possibly inside the car? All that cranking of the motor is going to heat up some wires and maybe burn some.

oldcutlass

I think he possibly may have overheated the solenoid coil and it may have expanded and stuck not letting the starter release.

eazy

Yes, the starter was stuck on. I'm on my way back from getting ether and a few gallons of gas. I'll make a better video of me trying to start it with a jump, but yeah I think i fried the starter coil or something

steverw

Thats possible too, I assume the cranking run on after releasing the key was before the video so maybe his wires are ok, i hope. In that cold weather ill bet his plugs are wet as hell. I would put fresh plugs in, charge the battery over night and give it a shot.

MDchanic

Okay. Now we have a reason for the starter to sound funny.

Keep us posted. I'm out until the morning, so we'll let the guys further west help you out.

- Eric

steverw

At least pull the plugs and dry them and clean them, crank the motor over a few times with the plugs out to blow out any excess gas
Steve

Octania

OK, so you are aware these systems are more or less independent. So, let's not go chasing down fuel line "problems" until the starter is working right.

Evidently you are unaware of the function of the choke unloader. When the engine is flooded, depressing the pedal all the way should prop open the choke a bit. This is much like the above mentioned "prop open the choke with a screwdriver" method, but is the factory engineered method. Pumping more and more gas into it with the accelerator pump is no solution to a flooded engine.

The fast idle is activated by the choke. Thereafter the choke is allowed to open gradually as it sees fit, with the fast idle unchanged until and unless you release the fast idle links/ cams from the FI speed setting screw on the primary throttle shaft... by blipping the throttle. THEN the fast idle cam comes down to a lower step, or none at all, depending on the exact position of the choke at that time...

As for your engine at this time, I hate to say it but it sounds like NO COMPRESSION as in the cam drive chain has jumped.

However, your story of the starter that would not stop indicates that your contacts in the solenoid are perhaps fried, and/or the starter itself. A rebuilt starter with a new solenoid would be a great investment at this time, regardless of whether that cures your present issue with failure to start.

I would remove the spark plugs and see how it sounds as you spin it with the starter. Dry the plugs. Might as well verify that it has compression since that job is halfway done with the plugs out.

Never assume new parts are good. I had a battery die after one month. New Spark plug that would not run the engine.

steverw

Ok I just watched the video again, several times. Im seeing what I think is gas coming out of the carb. Watch it and tell me if im seeing things. All around the air horn it kind of "lights up" and appears to get wet. Maybe its just the light I dont know. Maybe its just my eyes but i see it everytime I watch it. Put it on full screen.

eazy

Here's the updated video. I was draining my friends Ford while trying to turn it over.

White_Knuckles

steverw you're seeing it backfiring through the carb. Backfire often puffs raw fuel (or starter fluid) up like that. Sometimes it flames on! The starter rolling over sounds labored to me even under the jump condition. It wants to run and even tries a couple times running on starting fluid.

Take a pic straight down the barrel of the carb after pressing the throttle to the floor and releasing it. We need to see if the choke is truly closing. RA...RA RA...RA sound is sometimes due to timing being too far advanced but with the batt falling off so quickly it could be other things?

Move the throttle linkage back and forth by hand to see if the throttle pump is spraying fuel. With the choke manually opened and held open, look down into the carb. You should see jets of fuel squirting into the barrels. A few pumps (squirts) should smell like raw gas in the carb area. We need to eliminate - 1) you have fuel present. 2) the choke indeed closes. This thing sounds fuel starved to me.

Tedd Thompson

Sure sounds to me that it isn't getting enough juice to turn the starter and fire the points....Or that weird stuttering cranking sound could be a slipped chain or bad valves. I would first charge the battery, clean the posts and clean the by now flooded and fouled plugs before I spent a lot of money on parts that may not need to be changed... Just my thoughts....Tedd

76olds

Eazy, How many miles are on the car? I see you have what appears to be a recent set of taylor spiro pro wires and new plugs. How did the car run prior to the no start 3 days ago? Have you put these plugs and wires in since the no start? The carb looks to be functioning ok flooded yes !! , its getting fuel it wants to fire, has something been changed preventing it from firing. Do you still have spark ? I would hate to say timing chain at this point, a bit more info would be needed along with checking the backlash of your timing chain at the bell housing. It doesn't appear to be cold enough for it not to start.

nsnarsk65cutlass

No doubt in my mind the starter is bad by what i see in the videos.most likely caused by cranking cranking cranking and not starting-flooded,does it have spark?You will need to replace the starter, spark plugs,and change the oil,make sure you have a charged battery,and if nothing else is wrong it will start.The cold sub zero weather wreeks havoc on internal combustion engines,just glad i don't live in that weather anymore.Moved from Chicago area years ago.Nick

MDchanic

Yes, the starter sounds lousy, but, as I said earlier, I still really don't like the sound of the cranking. It's definitely got that cadence of a slipped timing chain, and the misting out of the carburetor points to that as well.

I'd really recommend putting a timing light on it after pulling and cleaning the plugs, and confirming spark and compression on each cylinder with a fingertip.

- Eric

76olds

Eazy I'm off to work Mdchanic and others offer much more than I can at this point, I'm sure they will figure this out for you - Hope you have better luck today. Cheers

brown7373

I'd start with making sure the battery is fully charged. Take it in the house/garage and charge it fully, overnight. Also, check every connection to see that they are clean and tight. That includes the wires on the solenoid. Do that while the battery is out to prevent a short when you check the wires at the solenoid.


Weak and uneven cranking can be cause by a loose or dirty connection. The colder it gets, the more important that becomes.


Until you eliminate the simple things, don't assume it is something more serious.

eazy

I don't know the true mileage of the vehicle, it has been mileage exempt due to it having an R title. The dash reads 49,200, and I changed the oil 200 miles ago its nice and light brown. It was running like a top until the other day when the starter blew on me. The last thing the previous owner did before I bought the car was new plugs and wires.

Unfortunately, I am strongly considering taking it to a mechanic. I have to drive home Thursday night so I don't really have enough time to keep messing with it.

If I didn't have a short time table I would pull the starter and get it rebuilt and pull the plugs and dry them off.

Anything is possible, but wouldn't it be highly unlikely that my car went from running great to having a compression issue overnight?

eazy

What is a timing light, and how do I confirm compression?

eazy

I guess the brave thing for me to do would be to take my month old battery to NAPA and make them give me a new one, and get some new plugs. Then pull my starter that looks like its gonna be a B without a lift, then take it in and hope it's done by Friday.

Probably just as good of an option as taking it to the mechanic and hoping he calls me this week!

oldcutlass

If it did not start with the ether, I suspect you don't have spark. Ether is very volatile and the engine can run off it. If you still have points can you run a hotwire from the battery to the coil + post. If your running an hei, to the batt post. This will eliminate everything in between the battery and the ignition system.


You will still need to crank the starter with the key.

eazy

I don't think I have points, but i'm not completely sure because all I know about points is you need a matchbook to set them; or something like that

oldcutlass

Does it have a separate coil and a small capped distributor, or a big cap distributor with the coil built in. If it has a separate coil, connect the wire to the post that is not connected to the distributor. If it has a big cap it will be the connection that is marked batt+.

MDchanic

Unless you know the mechanic, and are sure he'll give you priority, don't count on being able to drive it home in that timeframe if you leave it with one.


Why not just pull it and buy a rebuilt starter at NAPA?


Only takes 15 minutes, and lets you see something about the condition of the cylinders - why not just do it?


Not if it jumped a tooth on the timing chain and bent valves.


This is not an auspicious question.

I am confident that you can get this car fixed, given enough time and advice, but this statement makes me believe that taking it to a mechanic may just be the best idea.

A timing light is a strobe light that fires every time that the spark plug wire to which it's connected fires, thus allowing you to "freeze" the harmonic balancer on the end of the crankshaft, and see exactly where in the cycle the spark plug (ie: the #1 spark plug) is firing.


Just get a rebuilt starter while you're there.


Not a bad idea, but if you pull a plug, hook it up to its wire, rest it on the block where you can see it, and crank the engine, you should be able to easily see whether there is a spark, and what quality it is.


HEI:




Points:



- Eric

MDchanic

In the case I was talking about, put your finger over each spark plug hole while cranking with the throttle all the way open, and see whether you have a good, strong, equal compression pulse on every cylinder with each 2 revolutions.

It's better to get a compression gauge and do a proper test, but in an emergency, you should be able to feel whether something is "very bad" with your fingertip.

- Eric

76olds

Eazy , take it heasy , don't give up on it just yet!! Your better than that. If you happen to put a new starter in it yourself, be sure its not making a grinding noise on the flywheel, be sure to shim it out if this happens. Have you eliminated a no spark issue? Like you say it ran great until the no start, and your oil was changed, so the viscosity of your oil shouldn't have caused any serious damage ( shouldn't have ). I didn't appear to be that cold during your video, was it much colder the few days prior ? Best to see if you have spark. Don't give up you have Eric and Eric along with Eric and others cheering you on, I hope your getting close!!

eazy

Here is a cold start from about a month ago. It started like this until I blew up the starter. Right now I have the starter unbolted, and I am marking the wires before I take it out. The power wire going to the starter is stripped and has seen better days, as well as the R wire on the solenoid; which my HVAC experience has led me to believe is a Run wire.

I have new plugs that I will put in once I get my new NAPA repaired starter installed tomorrow.

It's pretty darn cold out, and my fingers hurt.

76olds

Sounds good in that video, No issues , Once you get your starter in tomorrow install all the plugs except number 1. put the plug on # 1 hold it close to the manifold and see if you have spark. Put-r-ther we knew you could do it. For now I would just use electrical tape to reinsulate the wires a bit until you get it going then change 'em' up when its a little warmer. If they aren't burnt up

MDchanic

Haven't watched the video, but "R" is for "Resistor," not "Run," and "S" is for "Start."

If you have HEI, the yellow R wire does not need to be connected, but if you have points, it has to go to the (+) coil terminal.

The purple S wire goes to the "Start" terminal of the ignition switch, through the neutral safety switch.

If the big heavy positive cable to the battery looks crappy, now is a good time to replace it.

- Eric

69 Ragtop

First of all, you appear to have spark. On the video, the engine "grunts" as it turns over each time the starting fluid is sprayed. (But check it anyway.)

Notice on your month-old video, the engine doesn't grunt when you crank it - it just starts. That grunting in the previous video tells me the engine is now advanced. I suspect the cam gear has spit its nylon teeth.

Chances are your starter is OK. The advanced condition is putting a real strain on the starter, and your battery is probably low on charge with all the attempts. It's gonna sound a little funky.

You need to find someone who can use a timing light. Using it will verify that the timing has jumped. It's a shame you missed the '60s and all the fun we had with points systems, even in our every day cars!

(BTW, when spraying the starting fluid, it's better to hold the choke open with your finger and get it IN there.)


Hope this helps, and Good luck!

MDchanic

The second video looked pretty normal, especially considering the original air cleaner with the hot air intake is gone.

You called the engine in it a Che_y, though.

- Eric