oldcutlass

I believe as the chain stretches or becomes slack the cam timing becomes retarded.

MDchanic

Absolutely correct.

69 Ragtop

I agree (spark is delayed), but when the engine is advanced too far it hesitates, or "grunts" when cranking, which is what the patient is doing. How many teeth might it have jumped if the nylon disappeared? I dunno.

eazy

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Yeahh I think I need a new power cable

Macadoo

I'd be more worried about your carpeting with that greasy starter lying on it.

My money is on a jumped timing chain. Did the car die the last time it ran or did you just come out one day and it wouldn't start up?

MDchanic

Okay, so you've got HEI, so you can leave that nasty R wire disconnected.

You should also ascertain that your HEI power wire is connected to a full 12v power supply, and not through the resistor wire.

That main heavy wire has got to go.
Make sure the new one is heavy enough.

Now you're getting somewhere.

- Eric

oldcutlass

The nut on the stud for the solenoid being loose is not helping either.


Bob, there is a difference between cam timing and ignition timing.

69 Ragtop

Agreed, but when the timing chain slackens (or the teeth bust off), both retard.


...wake me when we get around to checking the timing...

MDchanic

LOL!

- Eric

76olds

[QUOTE=Macadoo;663309]I'd be more worried about your carpeting with that greasy starter lying on it.

Lol, He's a college student ther has more than likely been a lot dirtier things laying on that carpet.


Eazy....... yup I would defiantly replace the cable, your doing a great job.

76olds

...wake me when we get around to checking the timing...[/QUOTE]


Your going to give Eazy a hard attack here keep 'em' positive yet !!

eazy

[QUOTE=76olds;663319]Actually, yes... and my landlord also happens to own a carpeting company. When they decide to keep my security deposit at the end of the semester I'm hoping the carpets will be part of that deal

eazy

Yeah, yeah, I get it. Point is I'm going to do what I can with my abilities before I send it into the professional to do what I already coulda' did.

69 Ragtop

Your going to give Eazy a hard attack here keep 'em' positive yet !![/QUOTE]

You're right! I think the cabin fever is getting to me.

76olds

On a good note your flywheel looks ok and you have an HEI put-r-ther. In the event it is your chain these guys will have you doing it and finishing in no time, no worries you can handle that too.!!! Few jugs of anti-freeze, gaskets, chain and gears, RTV, your good to go no problem, grab a nice hot college girl to keep you warm while your wrenchin. She can hold your nuts while you get your bolt in.

69 Ragtop

Hey, you're doin' fine, Easy. Your baby obviously has multiple probs, and you're fixin' 'em. I saw the pics of the starter wiring after I made my post, and the nut spinnin' off the solenoid, and the amount of grease on the starter (i.e., years on the car), so you're not hurting yourself by doing what you're doing.

69 Ragtop

More LOL!!!!

oldcutlass

My gawd. Get yer minds out of the gutter.

76olds

Macadoo is the newest timing chain guy go too I believe, So Eazy go after Mac he knows exactly how to do it lol.

Macadoo

Too cold up top!

76olds

Yes... Mac Keep it clean now , we have a kitty KATT pouncing all over the site now. Behave!!! Too cold up top imagine that !!!

Macadoo

eazy, you'll be surprised what you're capable of given some time and the right tools. If you think you might like to do the work yourself I would suggest grabbing a chassis service manual. I got a greasy, beat to crap manual on eBay for something like $20. Best $$ I ever spent. And places like Advance Auto or Autozone rent many tools like the damper puller you'll need if it turns out to be the timing chain and gears.
Heck dude, I'm an art prof and I pulled my engine completely out. It was fun.

69 Ragtop

Eazy, (based on your videos) I know potential when I see it, and you're up to fixing this, whatever it is. Three things to consider: Good, Fast & Cheap.

If you can seal a gasket you'll do just as good a job as the "professional" (or better). On the calendar, you'll get it done sooner than the pro (although it'll take you a couple more hours), and you'll learn about your engine. It'll certainly be cheaper. The toughest part is getting the timing marks right on the gears (actually simple once you know it's important), and we can help you through that.

76olds

Eazy take a few picks of the plugs that you take out, this may give some indication as to how it was running in the last few weeks , days .

johnnyjaws

wouldn't hurt to put some water evaporator in the fuel tank

Miles71

Hi Easy, you seem to be getting a lot of good advice. Let’s see if we can eliminate and fix a few of the known issues.
You will need to verify the following to eliminate a few issues.
Battery Power, Fuel to Carburetor, Spark from the HEI to the plugs and working Starter.
In your video on March 3, 2014, it did sound like you may have Spark, but that’s still a questionable issue.

Part #1 Battery / Cables / Starter.
Your battery is relatively new, however its winter and cold and the wiring on your battery/starter are a mess.
The poor battery and wringing can cause lots of problems, such as the starter sucking up all of the power and leaving nothing left over for the HEI system.
I would recommend you solve the Battery wiring problems first. Replace your Positive and Negative cables with good cables with the correct length and Gauge (or thicker) and correct cable ends.
While you are replacing the damaged wiring, you can bring your battery in the house and put it on the nice carpeted floor and put a trickle charger on for a few days. Most modern 10 amp chargers have a trickle or maintenance mode that will charge a battery and not cook it.
After completion Part #1, go to Part #2

Part #2, Ignition System
It appears you have an aftermarket HEI system which was not stock for that car. When an HEI is installed correctly with the correct 12 volt source, they will work better than original points system. I know nothing about your specific model ignitions system; one of the other experts here will provide better pointers on how to test and wire your HEI.
I do know that if the Starter/Battery/wiring system is poor, then there will be very little voltage left over to activate the Ignition system “When the starter is cranking”. The person that installed you HEI, may have used the stock “Resistor” wire to run the HEI, which is Wrong. Most HEI systems required a dedicated 12 volt source. The stock Oldsmobile only provided approximately 9 volts to the point’s ignition system, which is not enough to run an HEI system.
After you have verified the HEI system is wired correctly, you will need to make sure you are getting a “SPARK”.


Part #3, Carburetor and Fuel system.
Accelerator pump test:
Crank the engine for a few seconds and Stop; do not try to start the car yet.
Use a screwdriver or similar devices to hold open the Primary Choke cover so you can see inside the primaries.
The valves below the Choke cover is the Primary Throttle valve, which is directly connected to your gas pedal. Peddle off, valves closed, peddle floored valves rotate open.
The accelerator pump is the see/saw lever on the top driver side of the carburetor. While looking down into the Primaries push the pump lever and look for 2 streams of fuel squirting down from the top of the carburetor primaries toward the throttle valves. You should see 2 streams of fuel squirting each time you push the lever down. If you see fuel, then you have at least some fuel making it into your carburetor.
When I say squirting, I mean like a toy Squirt Gun. If you see just weak dribbles with each pump stroke, then you either have a clogged/frozen fuel system, bad fuel pump or you need to rebuild you carburetor.

If we have Fuel, and we have SPARK and we have a Working Starting / Electrical system, then we are in good shape. Since it’s still very cold you should help your battery with an external charging / starting power source.

Normal Cold Start:
Press peddles once to the floor to close the choke plate and release peddles.
Press peddle to 50-70% and hold.
Crank engine.

If you flood the engine, sometimes sticking a screw driver under the primary choke plate may help get the car started. It also will provide an opening for Starter Spray.

Good Luck.

MDchanic

Thanks, Miles. Nice synopsis.

- Eric

76olds

x2 miles... that's why we always carry a couple screw drivers and a small hammer in the trunk. I case you need open the butterfly, to tap the carb or starter just to get you going again. A big shovel is optional !!! Eazy I still believe once you get your new starter, plugs and a decent battery with cables, installed and get the spark you need I figure it will run like a champ again . Here's to hoping!! Cheers

eazy

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So I got the rebuilt starter installed, new power wire, and new end of the Start wire. Changed the spark plugs. It still doesn't start. I'm taking a little break right now and catching up on some schoolwork. A little later tonight when it warms up(yeah right), I'm gonna pull a plug and check for spark. As you can see in the new video it still has a little cough to it when starting up. I'm hoping I have a bad distrubutor, but I doubt it since it did turn over just before crapping out on me.

Thanks to everyone for their help so far. Thanks for staying positive and being motivational. On the bright side now at least I know for sure it's not the starter.

76olds

Your doin alrite Eazy, for sure check for spark next !!

Alex1972CutlassS

at the 4-5 second mark the starter just doesn't sound right.

Macadoo

Eazy, If you do have spark, I really feel like you should check the timing to see if you've jumped a cam gear tooth. Anyone know how to do that with the car not starting? Use a wire (or the eraser end of a pencil) in the #1 spark plug hole to get the piston to TDC?

69 Ragtop

Oops. Almost woke up there. Oh well, back to sleep...[/QUOTE]



Just hook up the timing light and crank the engine. You'll see the illuminated timing mark just like when the engine is running, but at a much lower RPM.

MDchanic

Nice work. You're making progress.

Do the timing light thing. For every tooth that the timing chain has slipped, the ignition timing should be retarded by an even 20° (if I recall), so if you had your timing originally set to 10°BTDC at idle, and the chain had jumped one tooth, now it would read 10°ATDC while cranking.

- Eric

eazy

I just went out and checked and verified spark. Turned it over a few more times and noticed that when it "tries" to fire the carb spits back a lot.

Are there any good write-ups on timing in these forums. It is one thing that I know almost nothing about. I am going to have to face the tough decision on friday as to whether to send it to the mercy of the professional's opinion, or to keep it and keep messing with it. I would just like to know the basics of it and how it could keep my engine from turning over.

Again, these 17F temperatures sure don't help!!

RROLDSX

Yes this will be interesting...

MDchanic

Timing is making the different parts of the Otto cycle of the internal combustion engine occur at the right times with respect to one another. Valves have to open and close, spark has to occur, the piston has to go up and down, and, in some engines, fuel has to be injected, all at the exact right instant.

In the case of your engine, the crankshaft turns the camshaft at one half the crankshaft's speed (because a 4-stroke, or Otto-cycle engine has its piston go up and down two times for each cycle, so the cam has to turn once for each cycle). The distributor is driven off of the back end of the cam, at a 1:1 ratio, so it turns at the same speed as the cam.

As the cam goes around, it tells the valves when to open and close, and tells the distributor when to fire the sparkplugs.

If the crank is pulling the cam forward (clockwise, when viewed from the front) against the resistance of the valve springs, and the timing chain is too lose, and slips a tooth, then the crank will proceed forward while the cam hangs back, thus causing the cam to be out of time, and its events (and those of the distributor) to happen later than they should, or be retarded.
If the cam is opening the valves too late, then the intake will, in some cases, be briefly open when the piston is making good progress upward in the cylinder, causing mixture to be forced out instead of drawn in, and this can lead to some backfiring out the carb. Also, the spark plugs will fire late, when the pistons are already traveling back down the cylinders and the mixture is no longer compressed well, leading to crappy running, or no running at all (to the extent that running is possible with the cam retarded, as this will also decrease compression by having valves open at the wrong times).

Basically, the engine will crank unevenly, blow backward out the carburetor, and not run, which happen to be the conditions you are experiencing.

That was a very quick and off the cuff response. Much better information, which would require much more time to write and to read, is available on line, though I don't think there is anything really comprehensive about this on this forum.

- Eric

eazy

^ great response!

You wrote that it a language I understand, and all of that information was very helpful.

I'm going to sleep on it then do some research tomorrow.

Thanks to all

68oldscutlass

Much, much, much better cranking now. Definitely sounds like a timing issue now. Especially with how it seems to almost "lock up" after a few seconds then pushes through it. You are close!

Miles71

Hi Easy:
I saw your video from March 5th.
You stepped on the gas to the floor three times and kept it on the floor while cranking.

That combination does not work for my CS-71 350 / 4bbl.
My CS will flood with 3 shots of Accelerator Pump gas before cranking.
Is this how your car normally starts?

I actually read my owner’s manual for a cold start process and it seems to work well.
On a typical 30F morning, my car will usually start the first try 9/10 tries.
I push the peddle Once to the floor and release
(this will set the choke closed and inject 1 shot of Accelerator-Pump gas into the Primaries).
Then I push down to 50-75%. This will give the car 2-shots of fuel from the Accelerator-Pump.
Every time you release the peddle, you reset the Accelerator-pump for an extra shot of gas.

Too many peddle pumps will flood the engine.

Power Cables / Plug:
The yellow wire from the battery “Power bus feed” looks in good shape at the battery side.
I can’t see the Horn Relay / Power Bus mounting point. The thickness of the cable looks like it’s in the ball park.
Your spark plug looks very oily and shows possible signs of a working spark (the clean spot at the tip of the anode).
When the car starts, do you see a big cloud of blue smoke for a few seconds?

You are making progress.
You now have a good starter and plenty of power to the starter.
Now it’s onto the Spark and the timing light suggestions from the group.