smash72

Have owned my car for one full year still dont know what it is.
Is it possible to have a
1972 Cutlass "S" 442 W-29 F-85 A body 2door coupe

I know one F-85 2door coupe was made in 72 and two "S" models were made with the Cutlass name. My understanding there was mass confusion in 1972 with the Fisher Body strike and the "S" moniker was nothing but a letter added to the 2door models. Some say "S" stands for sport to destinguish between CS (Cutlass Supreme) but I cant find anywhere GM supports this.
Are they not still F85's ? Could I simply measure the frame width ?
Someone please put this thing to bed for me cause I have had several conflicting stories & information on this subject some even from this site. Hope I'm not just a moron and everybody gets it but me.

1969w3155

F85 is the base Cutlass line, all 2 doors from this "A" body have the same frame including the Supreme. The converts are the same frame, with more reinforcing for offsetting body flex. So, the F85, Cutlass S/442/W30 are the same car with options and equipment to set them apart. The Supreme has the Notchback roofline and squared off rear fenders. "S" is just that "S", doesn't mean Sport, or slick, or spiffy...just "S". In 1972 the 442 (W29) was the appearance option that you could order, and can only be verified by factory paperwork.

smash72

So every Cutlass up to and including 72 is a F-85 base even if they are labeled "S" F-85 is clearly labeled on all pre 71 and not so much after. Sounds like GMs Olds div didn't know wether to **** or wind there watch during that strike year. They scrambled end of 71 with new rear tail lenses, a 'S' moniker, and Ta-Da here's your all new 72 Cutlass ?? Sound about right ?

oldspackrat

Not exactly, they had a Cutlass S from '68-'72 & maybe sooner also.

joe_padavano

Post the VIN, which will tell you EXACTLY what it is with no confusion whatsoever.

To be clear, you could NOT buy a two door F-85 in the 1972 model year, period. This image from the 1972 Salesman's Specs shows that pretty clearly.




The only F-85 available in the 1972 model year was the four door Town Sedan, which would have had a VIN starting out 3D69...

The bottom of the line Olds A-body two door for 1972 was the Cutlass hardtop, which used a VIN starting out 3F87.... I assume that is how your VIN starts. Interestingly, Olds used the model designation of "G" in the VIN for two other Cutlass models, the flattop wagon (3G36...) and the Cutlass Town Sedan (3G69...). The next level up for 1972 was the Cutlass S, which also used the "G" model designation as the 3G77 Sport Coupe and 3G87 Hardtop Coupe.

In prior years, the 3F87 model likely would have been called an F-85, but not for the 1972 model year.

And "S" does not stand for "sport", despite what people have been claiming for decades. It stands for "S", and means nothing other than being a model designation.

Allan R

No. The Cutlass S is a different VIN and trim level, plain and simple. The basic shell is identical, just different trim. What you call the f85 2 door was simply badged as Cutlass for 72, and as Joe points out there was no 2 door coupe or post coupe marketed as an f85 in 72 - just the Town Sedan had the f85 emblems.

Now as far as could you have a 72 Cutlass S 442 W29, or a base Cutlass 442 W29? The answer is yes. The 442 option was available for all 72 2 door coupes EXCEPT the Cutlass Supreme hardtop. If you wanted to go a step further, the same lineup of cars could be had with the W30 package, which also required the W29 option.

X2 on the VIN. I think we visited this once before and established this car was a Cutlass S.

One thing I'll add to Joes comment. The 3G77 model aka post coupe is the one most people misspeak as Sport coupe, instead of Sports Coupe. It's there in the excerpt Joe posted. IMO, OLDS was really struggling with the letter designations when the 72 model year came out, which may explain why so many models were in the 3G category? I can't see the rhyme or reason myself though.

smash72

3G87 is how my vin starts. So what is the body style difference between a 72 F87 and say a 70 F85 both 2 door hardtop coupes. Also how long have they called it a F87 I guess thats where my confusion was & also chopping the nuts off the 442 package, partly gas crunch but also partly because they were pretty screwed up that year which happens to be this newbie's year. Thx to all its all good stuff.

joe_padavano

So you have a 1972 Cutlass S hardtop. Your brain can stop hurting.

The use of a single letter to designate model instead of a two digit code started with the 1972 model year. This was necessary to free up a character in the 13 character VIN to allow an engine code to be included (as required by the EPA). Note that the two digit model code was still used on the Fisher Body cowl tag. Your cowl tag will likely have a 3687 model code.

Once again, there are NO substantive differences in body or frame among the 1970, 71, or 72 Olds A-body lines. Other than things like grilles, bumpers, taillights, and hood, all the sheet metal, frame, and suspension parts interchange. An F-85 is exactly the same as a Cutlass is exactly the same as a 442 except for trim and base equipment (such as the base engine and trans or spring and shock settings).

smash72

Just a fyi Even Wikipedia has this info wrong, as well as several other sites.
So besides a one number change a 7 instead of a 5 in the vin It is possible to own a 72 Cutlass "S" A body 442 W29 F85 (tech F87) exact same body style. Were almost there & I can finally put it to bed since the swelling in my brain has gone away. My body tag 72 33687
When you say model thats the same as series correct. ? Mine being single letter G how did they read pre 1972 ? Before said engine code ?

smash72

Also real quick there is a $60 diff in the 72 sports coupe & the hardtop coupe anyone know what the diff is in these two. The hardtop coupe being the more expensive.

Allan R

No, you're still mixed up. There is no f85 2 door coupe or sports coupe in 72. f85 in 1972 was only a 4 door sedan. It's not a one number change in the VIN. The code for Cutlass S was previously designated as 33687 or 33677 in the VIN. The 36 was replaced with the letter G which is the model, and the 77/87 remained to identify the body style. One thing that needs to be addressed though. Joe is not 100% right about interchangeability. Hard tops have a fair number of interchangeable parts with the post coupes, but the doors and side window components are different because of the B pillar incorporated into the body of the sports coupe. If he had said all similar models interchange, that would be correct, as there are differences between Cutlass ht, post coupe, Cutlass Supreme coupes and Cutlass Supreme verts.

joe_padavano

Wikipedia has errors? I'm shocked, SHOCKED I tell you...

Once again, scroll up and actually look at the Salesmen's Specs I posted above. The car with a 3F87 body style was a CUTLASS (not Cutlass S) two door hardtop. The 3G77 was the Cutlass S Sports Coupe (in Olds-speak, "sports coupe" was a car with a B pillar). The 3G87 was the Cutlass S hardtop two door.

As for availability of the W29 442 package for the 1972 model year, it was only offered on four models and body styles, per all the factory literature:

3F87 Cutlass hardtop coupe (formerly the 33287 body style in the 1971 model year)
3G77 Cutlass S Sports Coupe (formerly 33677)
3G87 Cutlass S hardtop coupe (formerly 33687)
3J67 Cutlass Supreme convertible (formerly 34267).

In this Olds ad from 1972, the red car is the Cutlass S hardtop, the blue car is the Cutlass S Sports Coupe, the green car is the Cutlass hardtop (note the standard bench seat) and the yellow one is obviously the Cutlass Supreme convertible.

smash72

And you wonder why a newbie like myself brain might hurt a little. My care is officially the red Cutlass "s" two door hardtop. I just got all proper vin numbers also have original sales sheet which of course only says Cutlass two door coupe. The only option purchased on the sales sheet were bucket seats. From the factory it was a 350, four barrel, single exhaust. I get it its a 455, 4 barrel, with 3" dual exhaust. At least its a "S"
Anyone know what the $60 diff is for on the sales sheet posted by Joe. Mine happens to be $60 more.

rocketraider

Heehee- Wanna throw a real wrench in it? Olds considered ALL their 1961-72 A-body cars to be F85's in the parts catalog. They finally began referring to them as "A" in 1973...

No, no one knows why.

joe_padavano

Here are the Salesman's Specs pages for the 1972 Cutlass and Cutlass S models. Note the sections in the upper LH section of each page - Standard Equipment. THOSE are the differences that you got for your $60. Also, on the Cutlass page, pay attention to the parenthetical notes of Coupe, Sedan, and Cruiser, as the Coupe was an "F" model and the Sedan and Cruiser were "G" models and had slightly different standard equipment. The biggest differences are floor covering (rubber vs. carpet), hood louvers (on the "S" models), lower body side moulding ("S" models), chrome trim on front bench seat ("S" models), and depressed park wipers ("S" models). Again, the basic cars are exactly the same (both even came standard with the 350 2bbl and column shifted 3 spd manual trans).

smash72

I do, its because they had all that good weed in the 70's. That whole division was stoned.

Octania

So, to understand the array of info, you gotta try this here...

ffffffffffft.... hnk.... snort... pause....

foooooooo....

whoa man, yeah, it's all clear...

There are two distinct uses for the the term "F85" [adding F87 from the one year's body style snippet does not help]

1) the EXACT F-85 MODEL which has die cast "F-85" [usually in script writing] emblems- a rare bird. I have one which is 1972 I believe, a 4-dr as pointed out above, and has the base 350-2bbl with 3-speed manual trans ON THE COLUMN... what an oddity.

2) in the parts manuals and such, it is common to refer to ALL the cars smaller than the 88/98 as "F85" - typically with no dash, just like that. So, back 'round '64-76 era, the three basic types of Olds, for PARTS purposes, are:
Toronado FWD E-Body [when applicable],
"Oldsmobiles" (the 88/98/Jetstar/Starfire cars - B and C bodies), and
"F85" A-bodies which actually includes (unless otherwise specified):

"F-85" model base line bottom feeder [which might have been fast with the right options]

Cutlass

Cutlass S

442

442 W-30

H/O Hurst/Olds

Vista Cruiser and similar Cutlass WAGONS.

these are all, for (e.g.) wheel bearing seal purposes, an "F85" type car, as opposed to "an Oldsmobile" or "Toro." as the parts manuals say. Yes, the Parts Manual considers the A-body line not an "Oldsmobile". The thinking of the day, well ingrained, was that "an Oldsmobile" was a huge car at least the size of an 88/98. By default. "Oldsmobile" = Big Car. Those other things? "F85's". Seriously.

So you can have an F-85 F85 perhaps set up as a Ram Rod or W31, '
or a Cutlass F85
or a W-30 442 type F85
among others

Chumley

Wow! This thread is one big can of worms. The thing that annoys me is when a car is posted on Ebay or Craigs list as a Supreme, and then you see it and it is an "S". It's good to see these cars entering the purchase pool since the current owners don't even know what they have! Chumley

smash72

I have a lot of stamped 71 parts on my 72 I even found hand written in yellow F85 on the firewall when I removed the heater box. Obviously a stoned supervisor on the line. He thought it was 1971 or never got the memo.

joe_padavano

This really isn't that hard if you consider platforms, not models.

Olds used the A-body designation on what was then the RWD mid-size car from 1964 through 1981 and on the FWD cars (Cutlass Ciera) from 1982-1996. Note that the 1961-63 F-85/Cutlass/Jetfire cars were Y-body cars. The RWD A-body platform encompassed the F-85, Cutlass, Cutlass S, Cutlass Supreme, Cutlass Cruiser, Vista Cruiser, and 442 models. In the 1970s it also included the Cutlass Salon and Cutlass Supreme Brougham. Within a given year, these are all the same car, same suspension, same chassis (with some wheelbase variation), and in most cases a lot of shared sheetmetal and interior parts. Stop getting hung up on the F-85 vs. Cutlass vs. Cutlass S vs. Supreme issue. It is irrelevant (and yes, headers fit all of them... )

Note that the B-body cars were the Delta 88, Delmont 88, Starfire, Jetstar (I and 88), along with various Custom, Royale, and Brougham derivatives over the years. The C-body cars were the Ninety Eights. The E-body (Toronado) entered the mix with the 1966 model year. The X-body (Omega) in the 1973 model year. The H-body (small Starfire) in the 1975 model year. The G-body first entered the Olds model lineup in the 1970 model year with the notchback Cutlass Supreme, however GM alternated between calling this the G-body and the A-special continuously until the 1982 model year when the A-body designation was assigned to the FWD cars and the carryover RWD cars were all called G-body.

The Chassis Service Manual for each respective year has a detailed chart that describes which platforms each model uses. It's at the beginning of Section 0 in each CSM.

1969w3155

Uh no, and no again.

joe_padavano

By the way, look at the bottom of the second column from the left. That should make your head explode.

joe_padavano

Meaning what, exactly? Production of the 1972 model year cars started in late Aug/early Sept 1971, so having 1971 date codes is expected on a 1972 model year car. And the 1971 and 72 A-body cars are nearly identical, so there are a LOT of common part numbers between the two.

Again, meaning what, exactly? As already noted, Olds engineering referred to the entire A-body line as "F85" in most of the engineering documentation. That is not related to the particular model. It was only used as shorthand to designate "Oldsmobile A-body platform".

This is NOT a difficult concept to understand.

smash72

It can be pretty confusing to a electrical contractor from Philly. Who decided to cut his teeth with a 72 Cutlass which happens to be same year they changed numbers, added a engine code, & cut the performance nuts off the 442 package. All which was Chinese when I started. Im thrilled I asked what could have been a real stupid question cause I get a free education. You guys know your stuff. Some of the added confusion was all the stuff the PO dis to the car 455 ect. I needed to find out what my car looked like when the plant in Arlington Texas smacked his ***
Feb 1972 for his 1st birthday.

joe_padavano

One more bit of info as to why the 1972 model year is a funny one. The UAW held a ten week strike starting in Sept 1970 that saw nearly 400,000 GM workers walk out. Most GM operations were impacted by this, including the Fisher Body work. Fisher Body was in the middle of purchasing the massive body stamping dies for the "colonnade-styled" cars that eventually came out in the 1973 model year. These cars were scheduled to be released for 1972, which meant that the stamping dies needed to be delivered, installed, tested, and fully functional by early July 1971 to support a Sept 1971 release of the new 1972 models. The strike in late 1970 blew that schedule out of the water, so GM made a last minute decision to put some lipstick on the 1971 A-body cars and call them 1972 models.

For example, you'll note on the Olds A-body cars, the only exterior differences between the 1971 and 72 models are the tail light lenses and the grilles (and on the 442s, even the plastic grilles are the same, just the paint is different). Since there was originally no plan to build the older A-body cars in the 1972 model year, GM had to scramble to get them certified for emissions and safety. That's why the model lineup was reduced in 72, as well as the engine choices and available equipment as compared to the 1971 model year. For example, there was no six cylinder engine offered in the 1972 Cutlass line, but it came back for 1973.

Koda

And that's the ONLY thing I will ever be grateful to the UAW for, because the 72 cars are some of the best, followed by the 73 cars which are arguably the worst, right up there with 58s. And before anyone gets butthurt; it's true, just check resale value.