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While the official story was that Demmer installed them to bypass the GM 400 cu in limit in the A-body cars (nudge, nudge, wink, wink), we now know that the motors were, in fact, installed right on the assembly line. The engineering documents exist that substantiate this. Think about it. It would be impossible to build the car on the line without a motor (what would hold the trans, exhaust, and accessories, and how would you drive the car off the end of the line and over to Demmer?), and it would be financially untenable to install motors just to have Demmer pull them out. Also, the factory would have been required by law to stamp the VIN derivative on any motor installed at the factory, so where is this pile of 400 motors with matching VIN derivatives that got pulled out? And why are there photos of Demmer painting the cars, but not swapping engines?
Joe makes a very good argument. His points make it very hard to imagine any other theory.
I think I have asked this before, how in hell did Olds get away with defying the engine size ruling? I’m guessing there would have had to be product testing (meaning paperwork) some engineering discussion, assembly line planning and changes (more paperwork) the parts listing, countless steps that I would think would have caught someone’s eye. Did all the top brass just ignore everything?
Just pondering, what would have actually happened if the top brass let it happen? Since the 400 CID restriction was a GM edict, who at GM would be in a position to monitor and enforce it? And if "someone" was bypassing the edict, who would care? And what would they do about it?
Wow, thats interesting. I figured it was like a yenko chevy, car went to Don Yenko , he pulled the 396, put in the 427 type of thing, stripedit up, sold itas a new Yenko Chevelle
Joe makes a very good argument. His points make it very hard to imagine any other theory.
I think I have asked this before, how in hell did Olds get away with defying the engine size ruling? I’m guessing there would have had to be product testing (meaning paperwork) some engineering discussion, assembly line planning and changes (more paperwork) the parts listing, countless steps that I would think would have caught someone’s eye. Did all the top brass just ignore everything?
I suspect that someone at the top at Oldsmobile forgot to check if the "memo" was sent to the top brass or, they didn't write the "memo", or the "memo" was inaccurate.
Imagine that, top brass willing to give the customer what they want, even if it goes against corporate policy. I’m guessing cars like the Hurst Olds snd other specialty vehicles aren’t very profitable (probably why the big wigs aren’t interested in them!) but the publicity more than made up the difference.
If only the people in charge thought that way in the mid 80s, at the beginning of the decline of the American auto industry, maybe the big 3 wouldn’t have lost the market share they did.
For the 1964 model year, Pontiac's GTO blatantly ignored the GM edict mandating a maximum of 10 cubic inches of engine displacement per pound of vehicle weight. Olds followed the mandate with their 442.
The GTO was a runaway success; the 442 not so much.
The other divisions chafed and began pushing the limits of the edict. Hurst gave Olds an opening to massively ignore it in 1968 and 1969.
At the time, the brass were still 100% car guys who had made their way up in the organization. Brass were aware of this because their edict changed shortly thereafter.
The invasion of the ignorant MBAs didn't reach critical mass until a few years later.
Well, not sure it was accurate but it has been said over at Pontiac, John DeLorean did what he wanted, acted as it was easier to get forgiveness than permission. Supposedly it was not allowed to put the big 389 in a Tempest, but he made it happen and thus the 64 GTO. I think that Olds management also made it happen on the 68 Hurst Olds. I'm sure it was pretty easy to get forgiveness if the deed was a huge success! Very heady times!!
I really doubt anyone in GM corporate believed the Demmer-installed motor story, but it did provide plausible deniability. And while Yenko may have originally swapped motors, it wasn't long before Chevy allowed 427 Chevelles and Camaros to be built on the assembly lines as COPO cars.
And FYI, here's one of the factory issued Engineering Orders that talks about installing the 455 in the 1968 H/Os. As I've stated time and again, Olds NEVER randomly installed parts on the assembly line. Every single thing done when the cars were built had full factory engineering and manufacturing documentation.
Imagine that, top brass willing to give the customer what they want, even if it goes against corporate policy. I’m guessing cars like the Hurst Olds snd other specialty vehicles aren’t very profitable (probably why the big wigs aren’t interested in them!) but the publicity more than made up the difference.
If only the people in charge thought that way in the mid 80s, at the beginning of the decline of the American auto industry, maybe the big 3 wouldn’t have lost the market share they did.
The "top brass at GM" were concerned with sales volume and profit margins. "Top brass at Oldsmobile division" had dreams of Oldsmobile building new products and capturing a larger share of the market. And they loved performance and racing. The 68 H/O could have made money if they produced more units. It would have also killed that long stroke 400 and the 442.
The CEO's of like Roger Smith killed car quality for a few pennies more of profit margin. The "philosophy" (now called "Mission Statements") used to be "Exceed minimum customer expectations". That all changed to "(just) meet minimum customer expectations". The bean counters believed that "quality" costs money.. Higher quality that exceeded minimum quality was a waste of money and profits.
Originally Posted by VC455
Consider this interpretation of events...
For the 1964 model year, Pontiac's GTO blatantly ignored the GM edict mandating a maximum of 10 cubic inches of engine displacement per pound of vehicle weight. Olds followed the mandate with their 442.
The GTO was a runaway success; the 442 not so much.
The other divisions chafed and began pushing the limits of the edict. Hurst gave Olds an opening to massively ignore it in 1968 and 1969.
At the time, the brass were still 100% car guys who had made their way up in the organization. Brass were aware of this because their edict changed shortly thereafter.
The invasion of the ignorant MBAs didn't reach critical mass until a few years later.
I was thinking it was horsepower to weight, not cubic inches. Oldsmobile was in a transition in 1964. The trusty 394 was very heavy for the new A body and all they had ready was the 330 because the popularity of GTO caught them by surprise. Thats why the "Police Pursuit Apprehender" release became a 442 at mid year. Buick used the old "nailhead" 401, because thats what they had.
The MBA's (bean counters) have done irrepairable harm to all industries since them. These are the same guys & gals make the decisions that move products. jobs, and companies to foreign countries.
I was thinking it was horsepower to weight, not cubic inches.
I don't know what the limit was in 1964, but in 1965 it was a 400 cu in limit in the A-body cars and a 10 lb/HP limit. The official cu in limit went away with the 1970 model year. The 10 lb/HP limit supposedly still applied for 1970 (yeah, I don't know how the LS6 was allowed either). There's a reason why the 3700 lb 1970 W30 is officially rated at 370 HP.
I don't know what the limit was in 1964, but in 1965 it was a 400 cu in limit in the A-body cars and a 10 lb/HP limit. The official cu in limit went away with the 1970 model year. The 10 lb/HP limit supposedly still applied for 1970 (yeah, I don't know how the LS6 was allowed either). There's a reason why the 3700 lb 1970 W30 is officially rated at 370 HP.
Doc Watson is even on video tape acknowledging the 455 engines were already installed in the cars when they left the factory. He would know. He was there. Just too much evidence and federal mandates for them not to be.
It is also rumored that Olds got the greenlight for the Hurst project, in part, as a "consolation prize" of sorts for not getting an F-body line vehicle for 67. Although to seemingly add insult to injury, the 428 Hurst Firebird was given first consideration for John DeLorean at Pontiac, it ended up with Oldsmobile landing the project.
Regardless, I'm glad things turned out the way it did. Of course, an F-body Olds may have been fun.
The "top brass at GM" were concerned with sales volume and profit margins. "Top brass at Oldsmobile division" had dreams of Oldsmobile building new products and capturing a larger share of the market. And they loved performance and racing. The 68 H/O could have made money if they produced more units. It would have also killed that long stroke 400 and the 442.
The CEO's of like Roger Smith killed car quality for a few pennies more of profit margin. The "philosophy" (now called "Mission Statements") used to be "Exceed minimum customer expectations". That all changed to "(just) meet minimum customer expectations". The bean counters believed that "quality" costs money.. Higher quality that exceeded minimum quality was a waste of money and profits.
I was thinking it was horsepower to weight, not cubic inches. Oldsmobile was in a transition in 1964. The trusty 394 was very heavy for the new A body and all they had ready was the 330 because the popularity of GTO caught them by surprise. Thats why the "Police Pursuit Apprehender" release became a 442 at mid year. Buick used the old "nailhead" 401, because thats what they had.
The MBA's (bean counters) have done irrepairable harm to all industries since them. These are the same guys & gals make the decisions that move products. jobs, and companies to foreign countries.
Was it Roger Smith who was quoted saying “we are the biggest automaker in the world, why are we spending so much to to be number 1?” Or something along those lines.
I really wish I was around to enjoy the golden years of the auto industry. The great car men of the 50s and 60s for the most part started at the bottom and worked their way up the corporate ladder. After investing 30plus years of your life building something, you can’t help but develop a huge sense of pride. You tend to make decisions for the long term, you don’t want to see your life’s work run into the ground. Which in my opinion is the problem with corporate America today. MBAs are not a substitute for experience, without putting in the sweat there isn’t nearly the satisfaction from the success. Without the experience, you can’t possibly understand what it took to get to where you are.
This is also why it seems most family business fail around the 3rd generation. Grandpa busted his *** to build the business. Junior was around it enough growing that while he may not understand all of it, he at least knows the hard work it took. Grandson wasn’t around for the hard times, had no clue the sacrifices it took to make bit work, but is reaping the benefits.
Was it Roger Smith who was quoted saying “we are the biggest automaker in the world, why are we spending so much to to be number 1?” Or something along those lines.
While I'm no Roger Smith fan, the reality is that the primary purpose of a publicly-owned company is to make profits for it's investors. A company with small market share but high profits per unit can make more money than a large company with tiny profit margins per unit. Yes, there's a whole different discussion to be had about what's the right way to increase profitability (and one can argue that building halo cars like the H/O will improve profitability). The real problem is the focus on next quarter's profits, not those in the next year or even in the next decade.
Since we've already driven this thread off the road and across the median into oncoming traffic, here's an interesting animated chart that shows US market share for automakers from 1961 to 2018. Like all of these animated bar charts, it unfortunately autoscales the top bar to full width, so it's optically a little misleading, but the most surprising thing for me is that GM has never lost the top spot in US sales. The other interesting thing is that Mercedes barely makes the chart and Audi is too small to even show up.
Was it Roger Smith who was quoted saying “we are the biggest automaker in the world, why are we spending so much to to be number 1?” Or something along those lines.
I really wish I was around to enjoy the golden years of the auto industry. The great car men of the 50s and 60s for the most part started at the bottom and worked their way up the corporate ladder. After investing 30plus years of your life building something, you can’t help but develop a huge sense of pride. You tend to make decisions for the long term, you don’t want to see your life’s work run into the ground. Which in my opinion is the problem with corporate America today. MBAs are not a substitute for experience, without putting in the sweat there isn’t nearly the satisfaction from the success. Without the experience, you can’t possibly understand what it took to get to where you are.
This is also why it seems most family business fail around the 3rd generation. Grandpa busted his *** to build the business. Junior was around it enough growing that while he may not understand all of it, he at least knows the hard work it took. Grandson wasn’t around for the hard times, had no clue the sacrifices it took to make bit work, but is reaping the benefits.
I can't remember if Roger Smith or someone else said what, but that was the "new business theory". Numbers on a balance sheet determined decisions.
The MBA's worked their way up from the bottom....in the accounting department. We called them "never sweat's" Their mechanical abilities and prowess was just high enough to figure out how to empty a pencil sharpener. Before that, CEO's were Engineers, Designers and such, worked their way up from doing menial tasks at the bottom.
If an Economist looked at the MBA's contribution in the form of "value added" to a product, they would score a ZERO.
50's and 60's Car men and people had a great deal of pride in where they worked and the products they made. There was a friendly rivalry among car brands and a place for everyone.
I thought it was roger smith who was quoted. I remember reading it in a fairly current biography. That’s going to drive me nuts until I can remember who said it.
Does anyone know when GM made the decision to lift the 400ci limit? Just wondering how long of a heads-up the divisions got to develop their respective 454/455 A-Bodies.
I should have phrased the question better. I was wondering when GM decided “let’s lift the 400 ci limit for 1970”. Was it in ‘67,’68, or a last minute decision.
I should have phrased the question better. I was wondering when GM decided “let’s lift the 400 ci limit for 1970”. Was it in ‘67,’68, or a last minute decision.
The decision was made to apply to the 1970 model year. Since the cars were designed 3 years prior to release, you can do the math.
Since we've already driven this thread off the road and across the median into oncoming traffic, here's an interesting animated chart that shows US market share for automakers from 1961 to 2018. Like all of these animated bar charts, it unfortunately autoscales the top bar to full width, so it's optically a little misleading, but the most surprising thing for me is that GM has never lost the top spot in US sales.
A little update is that when the final numbers for 2021 are in, that GM will be second to Toyota in the US. Sorry, but that is the scuttlebutt. Poor management, unions, and quality control are all reasons.
A little update is that when the final numbers for 2021 are in, that GM will be second to Toyota in the US. Sorry, but that is the scuttlebutt. Poor management, unions, and quality control are all reasons.
One data point does not make a trend. You are omitting the biggest reason if what you're saying comes to be true- Covid and chips. Everything has been turned on its head because of Covid so anything that suddenly changes since March of 2020 until we're out of the woods with all this crap, I'm just going to consider it an anomaly.
Apparently car companies aren't on the high list for getting chips. And those who don't pay up, have to get in the back of the line. So they don't build them, thus don't sell them. For example, no CT4 or CT5 or even Camaro cars were even being built for a good while. And a bit more than 15,000 Camaros were built for 2021. Which is about 1/2 of 2020 production. And scant numbers of trucks. So if you don't sell any, you're not going to retain market share. It's likely more political than it seems as well. But now car makers in the U.S. are starting to get the idea that hey, why not start building our own chips right here in the U.S.? Duh. So that may make it more do-able.
Regardless of the reason, you can't always point to quality and poor management. If so, you'd have to point the finger at Toyota as well. 1/4 million Camry's were just recalled (18-19 MY) for faulty brake booster pumps. Certainly not the GM truck saddle gas tank fiasco of 50 years ago, but still. Something that can cause a crash is an issue that needs dealing with. Toyota isn't without their own set of problems.
A little update is that when the final numbers for 2021 are in, that GM will be second to Toyota in the US. Sorry, but that is the scuttlebutt. Poor management, unions, and quality control are all reasons.
Frankly this wouldn't surprise me if it does turn out to be true. I also couldn't care less. There hasn't been a vehicle built this century that I'd be remotely interested in owning (with the one exception of the 2004-06 Ford GT). They all look like crap, have waaaay too much nanny electronics, and are just stupid expensive.
I can’t say I’m really surprised. Of courses Japanese car companies are going to outsell American cars companies, as someone pointed out, you can’t sell a car that isn’t finished. The reason they can’t be sold, not enough electronics to finish them.
This semiconductor crisis has made everyone aware that most electronics are made in Japan. Of course Japan will put their needs first. If the “cheaper is better” thinking of the 80s hadn’t happened, we still would have semiconductor manufacturing here.
If that kind of manufacturing does come back, I hope people learn from this. Build it here!!!
I was curious as to the root cause of the 'chip shortage' so a few months ago did a little research. I (wrongly) assumed the global automotive market had significant purchasing power. Turns out, even on a global scale consider all manufacturers, the automotive sector holds a surprisingly small share of the global chip market. Consumer electronics (TV's, PC's, phones, etc.) are the really big players. As such, the automotive purchasing people have surprisingly little negotiating leverage.
COVID related shutdowns are the cause of short supply but a redirection of the limited supply to consumer electronics manufacturers is the real reason auto manufacturers are left suffering.
Given the recurring theme of new COVID variants and drastic government (over)reactions, you'll likely be waiting for that new car longer than I've been waiting for my wheels from Wheel Vintiques.
There are 8000plus trucks from the Fort Wayne GM truck plant in a parking lot here in Kokomo, Indiana. Every day, car carriers are loading/unloading trucks. I have no idea how they keep track of what’s coming and going, but they obviously do. The real kick in the nuts: the parking lot these trucks are stored in is the old Delco Electronics plant, at one time the largest automotive electronics factory in the world. They started shipping production of semiconductors overseas in the late 80s.
...on a global scale... the automotive sector holds a surprisingly small share of the global chip market.
You had good information in your post. I can add one thing--when the lockdowns emerged and sales dropped, the auto manufacturers cancelled their semiconductor orders. When they were ready to go back to full production, they had lost their place in the semiconductor production line. And with their small share, as you pointed out, it's not surprising that they are having trouble getting their supplies back.
Japanese auto manufacturers are not so quick to react to temporary events. American companies react to an event like this as if it were permanent.
Japans manufacturers have been outsourcing some of the work on their products for some time now. Take for instance Nikon cameras. I am a photographer and their products were consistently a very high quality product. They now outsource a lot of their work to Thailand and China, and the quality of their products has suffered tremendously. I used to shoot only Nikon but now I buy Canon - they haven’t turned on me - yet. So it’s not just the USA that is turning to cheaper labor and a cheaper manufacturing process. Would be interesting to know where the internals of Toyota s are manufactured.
I can see assembly line workers having no issue with the special order paint for the ‘68 Hurst Olds - but it must have been strange at first to be painting the trunk lids black. Unless they were sprayed in batches ?
I agree. One of my upcoming projects is a "10th Anniversary" that never was 78. I've been trying to figure out how to do the stripe and not look like a 79.
January 1st, 2022, 06:46 PM
