twilightblue28A

Hello, I hope that you can help me. I see a 1970 442 W-30 convertible advertised on Ebay. The seller is representing the car as an original W-30, turbo-hydromatic automatic car, with all options. I spoke to the seller and the seller has told me that all numbers match, except the transmission, which is an "OW" transmission, but is not the original number, "OW" transmission. No Protect-A-Plate is available. The seller informed that no build sheet is available, but the car was an original W-30 convertible restored.







If I remember, I was informed from our site that 1970 442 W-30 cars did not have build sheets?? Please advise if I am correct in what I think I remember regarding W-30's not having build sheets. The seller is looking for the original invoice that shows the W-30 option added. Assuming the seller finds the invoice showing the W-30 option, and all the numbers match, and all else is date correct, including the F heads, distributer , carburetor, and all other part numbers match, can I safely conclude this is a W-30 car?? If the owner can't provide the original sales invoice, but again all numbers match and are dated correctly, with the exception of a non original "OW" transmission, can I still safely conclude the car is a W-30 car??


















Also, please clarrify, if my memory is correct, regarding build sheets not being available for the 1970 W-30 cars.


I am asking these questions because as most of us know, there were a little over one-hundred 1970 442 W-30 convertibles built with automatic transmissions, but it seems that there are well over one-hundred W-30 convertibles around forty-seven years later!!!!!


Thank you as always,


Harry

twilightblue28A

By The Way, the changes to our site are great!! Much easier to use. Great job to all that helped with the changes. Great Job.
Harry

1969w3155

Without documentation it is just a 442 with the W30 options added. If you are going to spend any considerable amount of money on a car, get one with documents.

twilightblue28A

Thank you for your response. I am not being argumentive, but if no build sheets were available for the w-30's, the only documention available is the original invoice from the Oldsmobile dealer from which the car was purchased?

As always, thank you and I look forward to your response.

PS I too am skeptical

Harry

1969w3155

Invoice, window sticker, or your best shot is if the broadcast card is in the car somewhere, usually under the carpet, or in the seat springs, sometimes the rear seat back. If the car has been restored and carpet etc. replaced, then they should have found it, if it was ever there. Don't pay W30 prices for an undocumented car.

jensenracing77

I think you are confusing the broadcast card with the build sheet. The broadcast card was left in most cars and even the W-30. The broadcast card would show the W-30 option. If he has no broadcast card and nothing to prove it is a W-30 then for the financial side of things you have to consider it as a 442.

twilightblue28A

Thank you for your information. Although the seller swears the car was delivered as a w-r0 when new, I have followed your advice and requested either the window sticker, Olds invoice or the broadcast card,n for which the seller is searching. What raises a red flag to me: the engine, although matching number, the "OW" transmission doesn't. It makes sense that you can add the w-30 parts to a matching number 365 engine but very difficult to also have a matching "OW" transmission. Without the documentation requested, I'm not a buyer!!!

Can't thank all who helped enough,

Harry

joe_padavano

Exactly correct, which is why the non-matching OW trans is a red flag. Unfortunately, you CAN fabricate a "matching" OW trans these days.

68442

It's all about the price point. A car with paperwork will be at it's highest price point, obviously. A car without papers but has all the correct items and particulars is somewhere in the middle.
Being that Lansing cars did not get buildsheets stashed in the cars as a practice. A VERY small percentage seemed to have them. I am always sceptical of lansing build sheets personally Considering how rare they are.

If this car is listed at 100K it needs paperwork . If it's listed at 30K without ,HMM
The notion of flat out disregarding these cars in lieu of paperwork is sad.
If you are buying these cars you really need to know what you are buying not taking others opinions. If you yourself are not an expert and looking to drop big money. You are in shark infested waters and you will get eaten.

joe_padavano

I wouldn't go that far. If a buyer is looking for an investment quality car and is willing to pay for it, then documentation is mandatory. I prefer to drive mine, so I care less, but everyone is different.

68442

Joe, Sorry i don't think it is to far off. I see it all the time on this site and others. First Question- Paperwork. No paperwork then it gets slammed as something other than real. Don't buy it, not worth it, Fake, etc. No dought it comes from lack of knowledge or fear of not really knowing whats real or not.

joe_padavano

I don't disagree with you, but if someone plans to pay six figures for a W-30, then that attitude is completely appropriate. I've regularly pointed out for less expensive cars that without documentation, one needs to evaluate the totality of the evidence. Are the red inner fenders shiny new repros or faded originals that appear to have been born there? Is the OW tag pitted and corroded or also shiny and new? Etc, etc.

twilightblue28A

Hey everyone. I appreciate your expertise and your points. Please realize as the potential buyer for this 1970 fully restored W-30 convertible, I spoke to the seller and asked him whether or not the sellers car was originally a W-30 convertible. The sellers response was yes, of course. The seller, when asked about documentation, informed me that the car was willing to compromise because the seller did not have a "build sheet". This raised a red flag because I learned from this site that 1970 W-30 cars came with broadcast cards, not build sheets! Ok, maybe the seller was confused.
I also asked whether the car was numbers matching. Response: "Yes, except for the transmission". When pressed about this his response was " I know it's an OW or a TO, I'm not sure which". This raised another red flag. Wouldn't you expect the seller to know the transmission in the sellers car the seller is selling. And, after receiving your responses on our site, it makes complete sense that the engine, although numbers matching, is the easiest to purchase W-30 parts. Why not the transmission???
The car is advertised as being completely restored with all new NOS parts. I looked at the fenders, and the fenders are not 1970 fenders, but instead are 1971 or 1972 fenders. This makes me question the sellers credibility, especially when the seller had "no idea" that the car did not have 1970 fenders, and questioned me how I knew the fenders were not 1970 fenders
The seller points out that the car was completely restored by Ken Reese. And, in addition has taken first place in multiple auto shows, and in addition, has scored very highly in Oldsmobile Nationals, and has been featured in multiple magazines.
I would think the seller of a car that scored so highly at the Oldsmobile Nationals, and featured in multiple magazines, and was completely restored, would have some knowledge of the weaknesses of such a rare car.
My position is clear. I don't want to spend almost six figures for a car represented as a W-30 with so many unanswered questions. When I decide to sell the car, I am sure that I will be asked the same questions, which will put me in a defensive position, and no doubt will affect not only my credibility, but also the price.
I have asked the seller for either the broadcast card, the original invoice, or the window sticker. So far I have not received anything. The seller will "look tomorrow". You would think the seller would look today!!
I am attaching the link to the car advertised on Ebay which the listing has ended. take a look at the sellers information and please let me know what you think of the car, and the information that I have been provided by the seller. Also, has anyone on this site heard of Ken Reese, and is he reputable? Finally does anyone know anything about this car? Your information will be very helpful.http://www.ebay.com/itm/1970-Oldsmobile-442-/252856678864
Thank you again.

442Fred

PM sent

jensenracing77

I only see this when they are asking documented price for an undocumented car. Nothing wrong with an undocumented car, it just needs to be priced accordingly.

twilightblue28A

Did you read my message directly above. I see both sides, but I don't want to be caught in the middle when the time comes for me to sell. I have asked for documentation, but so far nothing, although I was told by the seller tomorrow.


Thank you again

jharsh

I don't know the seller nor the car, but as for the fenders, the NOS replacement fenders would have the crinkles in them. The fenders, I believe were the same from 70-72. Now if they are actual GM NOS parts I don't know.




The Ebay ad says it comes with the original window sticker. Maybe he does not have access to it today. It is Easter. Give him a day and see what happens.

twilightblue28A

Jharsh,


Thank you for your response. I must have missed the sellers message regarding the original window sticker. as far as the fenders, 1970 fenders were different than 1971 or 1972 fenders. the fenders in 1970 were flat and did not have the bumps every 2" unlike the 1971 and 1972 fenders.


Thanks for the info regarding the window sticker.


Harry

jharsh

Harry,
That is what I said above. Remember some time during the 1970 year the fenders got the crinkles for safety reasons. So, if the fenders were ever replaced they would most likely be with the 70-72 replacement fenders. If you look at most 1970 cutlass's you will see one or maybe both with the crinkles. My Rallye is the same way. When I first bought it, it bothered me a little, but the truth is, it is correct for a replacement fender. Does it lower the value, I am an amateur so really have no idea.

twilightblue28A

jHarsh,


Again thank you. I learned something new!!! "A mind is a terrible thing to waste"


Thanks again

68442

I just read the auction description. It states it was originally sold from berejik Olds. Though the dealer no longer exists this dealer has kept "ALL" paperwork from cars sold out of that dealership. So Proof is available. George has resently passed away but the family still has the paperwork. So, this car is easy to prove it is real.

joe_padavano

Jim,

The dimples were actually added during the 1971 model year due to federal crumple zone requirements. The flat 1970 fenders pretty much act as a piece of angle iron aimed at the passenger compartment in a front end collision. The dimples allow that part of the fender to crumple instead of penetrating the firewall. All replacement fenders were the dimpled style, and it is not unusual for rusted 1970 fenders to have been replaced with the 1971-72 style. Of course, that's one more thing that ISN'T original on the car. All these items have to factor into a value and price determination for both the buyer and seller.

As for the car being a show winner, big deal. OCA judging does not have a written set of standards, nor is there a central database of what is "correct" for a given car. Two examples of why I don't place much value on awards:

First, at the 2009 OCA Nationals at Seven Springs, the best of class winner in 13B (68-69 Performance Open) was a 1968 "W-30" with the fender emblems and stripes in the wrong place.

Second, I was a judge at the 2010 Nationals at Sturbridge for all the H/O classes. There was disagreement among our team as to what was correct equipment for a given car. Additionally, we spent the allocated half hour on the first car, then as the rain started, we spend significantly less time on each succeeding car.

twilightblue28A

Joe,


Not only are you extremely knowledgeable about 442's, you are direct and have a great sense of humor!!!!!


THANK YOU,


Harry

twilightblue28A

Joe,


If I am reading you correctly, your position is that the originality of the car, original part numbers, documentation, and the condition of the car should determine it's value.
Thank you for your advice, and, I should know more tomorrow when the seller is supposed to provide at the very minimum the cars window sticker.
I would be less skeptical if the original numbers matching "OW" transmission was in the car.


Thanks Again,


Harry

cherokeepeople

thats got some nice shiny red fenderwells!!

70Post

What Joe said - I've seen original '71 cars with flat ridge fenders (or one of both). I think the transition occurred during the '71 model year.

Twilightblue: The link above doesn't work.

Ken Reese is a guy (Florida)that used to do some restorations on Olds's and had a large stash of NOS and used parts (back in the '80's or '90's). He was "out of the picture" for many years (and only sold parts on ebay) and was at this last years OCA Nats selling off more of his parts. I believe after that he sold whatever he had left as a package to another Olds parts guy.

I wouldn't use a "name association" to add or subtract value to any given car....the car should "speak for itself" via what is revealed in a thorough in-person inspection.

You need to understand that many of the folks trying to sell these cars like to "hijack" the lingo, etc from the more extreme groups in the old car resto world. They act like the stuff is judged or restored to NCRS (Corvette) standards and throw around words like "investment grade". It's what the buyers want to hear and they dole it out to them.

twilightblue28A

I agree with you observing the "shiny red inner wells". Another red flag!!!

Thanks as usual,

Harry

twilightblue28A

I also forgot to let you know that the 1970 442 W-30 convertible also has a spoiler on the the rear of the car. I am sure that rear spoilers were not available on the 1970 442's, irrespective of whether the car was a 442 convertible or a 442 W30 convertible!! This may be another red flag.
As usual, thank you

70Post

Spoiler means nothing. Many folks like the look of them and added them, over the years, to Supreme-style bodied cars...including 442 and W30 convertibles.

The spoiler, by itself, isn't "determinative" of anything other than the fact someone added it after the car was built.

1969w3155

The spoiler was not available on the convertible, but was an option on non W cars.

twilightblue28A

Dear 70 Post,

I agree with your position regarding the spoiler. However, when you add all the other questionable issues, especially a non matching "OW" transmission, there seems to be a pattern of the car being delivered originally as a W-30. That has, and still is my concern.
I am supposed to receive the original window sticker sometime tomorrow. Also, as I mentioned in one of my earlier posts, I would be less apprehensive if the numbers matching "W-30" engine car, was equipped with a matching "OW" transmission. That would resolve a lot of my suspicion regarding this specific car
Switch places. If you were paying close to six figures for this car, and you decided to sell this car, wouldn't you be concerned about the questions you would be asked, and whether you could get your money back. I'm not rushing to buy a W-30 convertible simply because the seller has advertised the car as such. Remember that a little over one-hundred were originally manufactured, there seems to be many more on the road today, forty-seven years later. I must see some documentation to confirm this car is a W-30 to eliminate me later filing a claim for fraud! Our courts are already struggling to meet the current demand. I am not that impulsive. I hope you would agree.
Thank you for your comment and I expect you to respect mine.
Harry

twilightblue28A

The spoiler was not available on convertibles in 1970 irrespective of the car being a 442 or 442 W-30 convertible. I think that's what you were writing but I wanted to be clear.
Thank you,
Harry

1969w3155

Yup.

twilightblue28A

Just like I wouldn't buy a 442 W-30 without documentation, or at least a matching number engine and matching number "OW" transmission, nor would I buy a 442 advertised without a 344 VIN !!

70Post

What car are you referring to? There was no link provided to the car you described in your first posting and, as I mentioned earlier, the link you provided in another post doesn't work.


Maybe I'm just computer-dense...I click on your link above and it goes to a site with some car parts. Then I put what I guess is the "ebay item number" into an "advanced search" on ebay and nothing comes up (maybe because it's an expired listing?). EDIT: I see the link now works....I'll check it out..thanks

Be careful on "paperwork" items like window stickers......even those are faked sometimes...."aged", etc to make them appear original.

twilightblue28A

twilightblue28A

Dear 70 Post,

The car is an expired listing. The car is a white 1970 442 advertised as a W-30. The car has gold stripes on the hood as well as the side.
You have me concerned about window stickers being counterfitted!! Also, Joe warned me that "OW" transmissions are now being "fabricated" and sent me a sample "OW" tag with the number that presumably will be matched to the engine.
I really appreciate your advice.
I'm at the point where without a broadcast card, I'm not a buyer!!

Thanks again,
Harry

70Post

Harry - Yes, I edited my earlier post as the link now works....thanks. Gotta admit...one cool looking car!

YES - as you mention, as the price climbs the "proof" needs to climb along with it.

Ken Reese is aware of broadcast cards on these cars and where to look for them. If this is the car you mention he was involved with, then I can almost guarantee you he looked for any broadcast cards, etc.

Beyond that.....the best advice I can give is that relying on "The Two P's" (ie - Pictures and Promises) is a recipe for disaster.

It may be a "great" car but you'd need it looked at by someone who knows "what" to look for. Also be aware that the restoration standards of the earlier decades may not have been as high as they are perceived to be now. What passed for "quality work" then might not be considered that great by today's standards. I'm not bashing this car in particular BUT it is an older and possibly "worn" restoration. It would be interesting to see any pics of the "before" car and any work-in-progress type pics. It all depends on the quality of the work done AT THAT TIME ON THIS CAR and then on how it's been maintained since then.

"Shiny red fenderwells"??? - again, means nothing - they could be painted, they could be nice originals slathered with armorall....OR.....like the ebay ad mentions ("NOS parts used in the restoration" or some words to that effect)....they could be NOS wells that someone had and absolutely perfect as far as real wells go. The pics aren't good enough to really tell anything about the wells anyway other than they are a red color.

"Executive ordered car"....so what?? Without rock solid proof it's just a sales pitch. Back in the '70's/'80's it was EXTREMELY COMMON for folks to "add options" to cool cars they had. Remember, the salvage yards were full of Cutlass's, etc....power window setups, power bucket setups, consoles (every console made still exists IMO ), AM/FM factory stereos, 8 tracks, Rally Pac gauges, etc. - you name it and it got pulled from the cars by nuts like us on Saturday trips to the yards.

Likewise, I've seen MANY older restos where these salvage/swap meet/etc-sourced parts were added to the cars...super originality wasn't a big deal then. Having cars loaded with "more options" WAS a big deal.

Some of that stuff eventually gets reversed...case in point...a '70 W31 I was involved with to some degree over the years helping the current owner do some resto work. He yanked out the power window setup and went back to manual windows. And yes, I know the guy that installed the power window setup when he owned this car back in the '80's....that guy was an "option fiend" back then and added all kinds of stuff to his cars.

twilightblue28A

Dear 70 Post,

I am glad that you saw the car and I agree, the car is beautiful. I have asked about Ken Reese's reputation, location, phone number, and I haven't received any information.
The seller mentioned that he was willing to compromise the price because he doesn't have a build sheet. That raised a flag because W-30's were never provided with build sheets, but we're provided with broadcast cards. That raised anotber flag to me, my reasoning being that a seller who underwent a complete restoration either knew, or should have known,that only broadcast cards were available and the seller should have one. I have asked and the seller will look. The lack of knowledge regarding not knowing he has 71 or 72 Fenders also raised a flag. The lack of a matching number "OW" transmission raised another flag,especially since the engine is "definitely matching numbers" and it logical that the engine is the easiest to add W-30 parts. So we'll see if the seller can provide a broadcast card or not. With Joe informing me about "OW" transmissions being "fabricated" and you telling me about the window sticker, I am not a buyer that will pay very high five figures when you add all of these issues together with out documentation.
By the way, I love your "2 P's" makes sense.
Tghanks again,
Harry

twilightblue28A

Dear 70 Post,

I have a question that perhaps you can answer. Let's assume the seller provides a broadcast card that shows the W-30 option but the transmission is not the original "OW" transmission. Is the car worth almost six figures?? And, assuming it is, will I get tortured with questions since the transmission doesn't match, and accordingly affect my selling price negatively to the extent I can't recover my purchase price???
I am asking your opinion in case the seller can provide a broadcast card. Further, I am not holding you to anything. I'm just curious.
Thanks, harry