Professur

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/business-26148711






A software fault? I thought it was called having a dead battery. Go figure.

Fun71

First it was uncontrolled acceleration, now it's uncontrolled deceleration.
Software fix gone wrong?

joe_padavano

How can anyone who's ever used a Microsoft product be surprised when software has problems?

Nop

Koda

From what I am led to understand, and told share freely with family and friends, from the above, is that it's a couple software flashes that address an unlikely condition that has happened to very few vehicles. This is a voluntary recall, as opposed to a government mandated recall. Recalls happen all the time, and the news sort of haphazardly chooses which to scream about and ignore, depending on which company is the current whipping boy and whether or not it is a slow news week. Considering that nobody wants to hear about the crappy economy, or Obamacare, and you can only get about 1 day out of the French President visiting and the Olympics, I'm guessing it's a slow news week.

I wrote, about a month back, a really long detailed explanation of the 2009-10 Toyota dogpile conducted by the press, and all the fixes done to the vehicles. It's too long to repost here, but you're welcome to run a search for it. The very brief summary of it was:

-Floormats were getting stuck under pedals. They got better hooks and pedals got more clearance to the floor.
-A "friction creating material" designed to replicate the feel in the old throttle cable/rod style assembly and prevent hysteresis from your foot bouncing up and down on the pedal from bumps in the road with the purely fly-by-wire Hall effect sensors, was humidity sensitive, and swelled in some rare cases making the gas pedal return to idle slower, or sometimes even hang.
-The only software change was to install brake override software that, when the brake is hit at over 20mph, I think, would override the throttle signal and send it back to idle, regardless of the gas pedal position.

The results of all the investigations found that all the cars had had no ECU problems, people were standing on the go pedal instead of the whoa pedal, and even IF you had a floored Toyota at 80 mph, standing on the brakes would bring it to a smoking halt, because the brakes are more powerful than the engines. (These are Camrys, not Supras.)

Let me know if I can answer more questions.

ent72olds

.....damage controller.....

Koda

I figured folks appreciate correct information, actually. Plus, I'm
an engineer, not HR.

Sampson

This is not a slam at Toyota by any means. I own a 4 Runner and love it.but what were they thinking with the Prius anyway first it is the ugliest car produced since the 1961 Plymouth Valiant. Second what's up with the name? Chevrolet has the VOLT. Ford has the FUSION then there is the Toyota preeeeeus! Weeeeeee

Koda

Because the target market is women and yuppies who like fru-fru drinks?

Professur

Now there's a poll to start ... which was uglier .. the Valiant or the Prius. That would be a tight race.

BlackGold

I'm an engineer, too. And if you've read all of the official investigation reports, you know how insufficient the investigation (Toyota and governent) was. There was a lot of politics behind the conclusions. At least a few of the documented sudden acceleration cases were absolutely NOT caused by someone standing on the wrong pedal. Does that mean ALL of the reported incidents were machine error and not human error? Of course not. And I'm not going to try to draw the line at how many real failures is too many. But Toyota got off the hook way too easy on this one (in terms of fixing the problem; yes, their reputation took a beating).

mike8162

I would rather have the Valiant. Now an AMC Matador might possibly be uglier but I see the AMC and Prius as a toss up.

Koda

You're quite correct, some of them were entrapped pedal. However, as an independent third party contractor, and NASA, found no way that the ECU could have done what was claimed, and that was accepted at a Federal court level, that, along with the completely additional aspect of adding the brake override software, was enough for the highest industry and the highest court in the land. What else could have been done?

Lady72nRob71

As another engineer, I had been watching this very closely also. Several runaway toyos nearby here had made the news, as well as one which killed the husband of a friend I have. None of the wrecks had logical explanations.
As far as i am concerned, the real problem of SUA was never announced. Flawed hardware, 'spaghetti' code, and overall design deficiencies were revealed by independent scientists. However, since it could not be easily replicated, it left no clues, and it was much more overly complicated compared to throttle cables, it was 'swept under the rug' by NHTSA and blamed on floormats and bad drivers to get it out of their hands. Too techy for them.
Now why did it all come from one company, which was supposed to make 'good quality' cars?
So no it was not all the driver's faults, unless bad drivers prefer these cars... Yes, there were some drivers that over exaggerated (like 0-60 in 3 seconds in a parking lot), but some were found dead, crushed in wrecks, with both feet planted on the brake pedal.

This issue is like finding out why your computer crashes and the sound goes wacko. It goes away after a reboot, the system halts so no log file can be made, and it does not repeat for a while, or ever.

This site has about all one would want to know about this SUA issue, with references, legal docs, contractor docs, scientific reports, and internal docs galore.
http://www.safetyresearch.net/
Go to the special "Sudden acceleration" section in the menu". Yes they are popular on that site.
Happy reading!

tru-blue 442

Let's not forget AMC's Pacer model.
What did they call it, a pregnant roller skate?

Octania

The brakes should ALWAYS be stronger than the engine, that's just Engineering sense.

If the vehicle is failing to slow down, and the operator fails to TURN OFF THE ENGINE that is operator error. Certain VW diesels were known to suck oil past the valve seals and go into runaway, with no way to shut off the fuel supply... until it runs out of oil. Which brings us back to

The brakes should ALWAYS be stronger than the engine.

MDchanic

'60 Plymouth.



- Eric

tru-blue 442

^^^Yep, that's pretty fugly.

Koda

Your comments are libelous, sir.

Sampson

Yep! That 60 Plymouth is pretty uuuugly! Dad had one. The steering wheel was almost square. Virgil Exner had a good run but I think he was running low on ideas by 1960
[IMG][/IM

I have always had the Nash Metropolitan pretty high on the Ugly car list

Diego

You guys are on crack - the '61 Plymouth is the ugliest:



If you remain unconvinced, here's a Dodge:

MDchanic

I always liked the Metropolitans.

- Eric

droldsmorland

History proves no matter how brutally ugly you make it "they" will buy it! These new "cars" are so ugly they make a freight train take a dirt road...Prius in particular but there are several others that make the top ten.

tru-blue 442

The 58 2 dr. Plymouth was cool though...
Sundance channel just ran 'Christine.'

Evil beauty she was. That movie was made in 83.
I didn't think it was that old.

The 2 ungliest may have been the 60-61 Buick Invicta,
or hands down the Poncho Aztek, with the optional tent.

BlackGold

Yes, but as you know, engineering is all about compromise. Picture yourself designing a hybrid. Most of the braking is performed by the individual motors at each wheel operating in "reverse," recharging the battery. So a nice side benefit is that you can make the mechanical, hydraulic braking system weaker. Should you? Then factor in the issue that power brakes are usually vacuum assisted, with that vacuum coming from the engine. But when the throttle goes to the floor, so does the available vacuum. Now the typical human can still press strong enough on the pedal to get max braking, but some percentage of the population can't. So again, how "good" does the braking system have to be?

I'm on your side. Just poiting out how compromises are sometimes made.

BlackGold

Let's ignore the hight court. While certainly important legally, their opinion means nothing as far as engineering is concerned.

I was excited when I heard that NASA would investigate. They certainly have personnel capable of understanding this stuff, and it seems a good use of this taxpayer-funded organization. But I was really disappointed when they came out with their results so quickly. There is no way they could adequately reverse engineer, test, and investigate the throttle system that quickly. And their report shows as much. I'm not going to debate this any further publicly; there's too many lawyers out there. And the reports are all public information easily obtained (as are dissenting reports). But I'll just point out how incredibly complex it is to design a fault-tolerant, fail-safe, fly-by-wire control system -- both the hardware and software.

gearheads78

Get used to it. This crap is going to happen more and more with drive by wire. Gas or Electric. I see it every day.

Sampson

Ok so this begs the question? What is the advantage? The throttle cable on my Cutlass is 40 plus years old and no problems ever.

coppercutlass

This is why I drive old junkers. I'm the abs , I shift the trans , I work the throttle , . The little 2002 saturn sl1 I got actually has been the newest car I have ever owned yet its kinda sweet and simple compared to many cars of that period. I work on new cars all day and they have computers to control the windows , mirrors and everything you could possibly move. I can't disconnect a window switch with out having to reset the window computers this being mainly on lexus' . I like technology but I hate how it complicates things. The scarry part is you have these lane assist and self parking cars ., I can't wait until they fail to see the outcome. Kind of a scary thought.

Professur

Shall I throw in the dreaded Electric power steering? Sure, why not. Nothing quite like having your power steering fail because (wait for it) .... one tire is 5 lbs low.

MDchanic

"Open the driver's door, HAL."

"I'm sorry, Dave. I can't do that."

- Eric

gearheads78

Depends on the point of view. The way THEY see it you are talking about driver control (or lack there of) If the gas pedal is just a sensor and the driver punches the gas too fast then THEY can have the car can move forward at the pace THEY want you to. If you skip sideways a little THEY can throttle it back and apply ABS at one corner as needed. If you are doing something THEY don't want you do THEY can tell a satilite connection THEY don't want the car moving any more.

joepenoso

A little off topic but those Plymouth/Dodge pics posted were grotesque
joepenoso

droldsmorland

[QUOTE=coppercutlass;654493]This is why I drive old junkers. I'm the abs , I shift the trans , I work the throttle

Copper....agreed! OLDER IS BETTER!

Koda

It really has nothing to do with conspiracy theories and controlling people. It also has very little to do with the drive of companies to change the cars. What it actually does have something to do with is mandated federal standards and evolving consumer standards.

Federal mandate and marketing survival require certain amounts of efficiency. You aren't going to buy a passenger car that can only get 15 mpg, and it's illegal to make one. I am speaking of a family sedan here, not a sports car. Efficiency is measured across a car maker's line and you must comply with federal regs.

Emissions are highly regulated as well. Again, manufacturers must comply by federal reg. If they can mod the performance of the cars to where you cannot do absolute WOT madness, then that saves them efficiency. The purpose of the fly by wire is to allow the computer to modify the signal as it's needed for economy, emissions, and vehicle and passenger safety.

While fly by wire throttle can and should be debated, ABS and vehicle stability control are absolute safety improvements. Now, the Onstar and SDARS systems that can remote shut down the car; they're up for debate.

So, the short answer is, the reason mechanical throttle control is gone is because the performance demands of today require computer assistance.

m371961

Beauty is in the eye of the beholder. When I saw these cars on the road back in the day,(60s) I thought ugh. Now, I find I like them.
I also read somewhere that Exner designed the 61 Valient to be wider and longer, he got sick and the design team made them smaller.