smcfadden5598@gmail.com

I have a guy trying to sell me a 1964 442 and says it’s all original. Can someone help me decode this? Is this a real 4spd 442 Oldsmobile?

joe_padavano

There is no way to tell from that cowl tag. Fremont did not use the same ACC codes as did the other plants, so you won't know if the car was originally a four speed or not. RPO A49 is deluxe front seat belts and B70 is safety-padded instrument panel. Neither of those is unique to the 1964 442s. Since Fremont did not use the same cowl tag codes as the other plants, Fremont cars are most frequently cloned. The earliest known 1964 442 has an 03A build date, so this one is at least within the correct date range. Unfortunately, without other paperwork or documentation, there's no way to know if it's real or not. It should be priced accordingly.

joe_padavano

For completeness, Trim 960 is black vinyl interior. Paint L1A is Regal Mist Poly (L), white top (1), and black wheels (A). FYI, Dennis Urban compiled data on all the known 1964 442s a number of years ago. That that time there were 17 documented convertibles known to exist, only two of which were Fremont cars. Both Fremont cars had white tops and black wheels on the cowl tag. I don't know what colors those cars were, or if there's a list by VIN.

Oldsmaniac

I would be very careful as it seems the trim tag is no longer mounted on the firewall?? Which could mean it is not original to the car. Its a mortal sin in my book to remove a trim tag.

joe_padavano

Actually, the cowl tag is not a legally-controlled feature like the VIN tag and has no such protections. Switching a cowl tag to falsely "prove" a car is something it isn't falls under the "intent to commit fraud" statutes. In any case, this tag appears to be glued to the firewall of something, obviously without the original fasteners. This tag also doesn't "prove" anything, so the "intent to commit fraud" thing is kind of moot.

Koda

Certification labels, which is what those things are, are legally required for sale by the OEM. They can be removed after that sale, like a mattress tag. Dumb idea to do so, but that's how it is legally.

4+4+2=10

Unless you are in Oklahoma...I tend to agree with Oldsmaniac on this. BTW, The NCRS will brand a Corvette as a counterfeit and refuse to judge it if the trim tag or Vin tag ever comes off for any reason. They do not want to get caught up in a lawsuit over fraudulent activity. Not all removals are done with the intent to commit fraud, but proving someone's intent can be difficult.


Effective November 1, 2007:

A. It shall be unlawful for any person to:1. Knowingly and intentionally destroy, remove, cover, alter or deface, or cause to be destroyed, covered, removed, altered or defaced the trim tag plate of a motor vehicle manufactured from 1953 to 1977;

2. Knowingly affix a counterfeit trim tag plate to a motor vehicle;

3. Manufacture, offer for sale, sell, introduce, import or deliver for sale or use in this state a counterfeit trim tag plate; or

4. Offer for sale, sell, introduce, import or deliver for sale or use in this state a trim tag plate that was affixed to a motor vehicle at the time of manufacture but has since been removed or become dislodged.

B. Paragraph 1 of subsection A of this section shall not apply to:

1. Any person who engages in repair of a motor vehicle, provided that removal of the vehicle's trim tag plate is reasonably necessary for repair of a part of the vehicle to which the trim tag plate is affixed, and provided that such trim tag plate is not intentionally destroyed, altered or defaced; or

2. Removal of a trim tag from a motor vehicle which is being junked or otherwise destroyed, if the removal is being done for historical documentation purposes by a person actively involved in judging events or for historical documentation of classic motor vehicles and reasonable precaution is taken to ensure that the tag is not sold or affixed to another motor vehicle.

C. Any person convicted of violating the provisions of this act shall be guilty of a misdemeanor. Any person convicted of violating the provisions of this act a second or subsequent time shall be guilty of a felony.

D. In addition to any other civil remedy available, a person defrauded as a result of a violation of this act may bring a civil action against any person who knowingly violated this act regardless of whether that person has been convicted of a violation of this act. A person defrauded as a result of a violation of this act may recover treble their actual compensatory damages. In any action brought pursuant to this subsection, the court may award reasonable costs, including costs of expert witnesses, and attorney fees to the prevailing party.

E. As used in this section:

1. "Trim tag plate" means a plate or tag affixed to a motor vehicle by the manufacturer which displays numbers, symbols, or codes that identify characteristics of the vehicle including, but not limited to, date of manufacture, body style, paint color, engine option, transmission option, trim option, general option, interior option, and interior color;

2. "Counterfeit trim tag plate" means:

a. any trim tag plate manufactured by a person or entity other than the original manufacturer of a motor vehicle upon which the trim tag plate is designed to be affixed, unless the trim tag has been permanently stamped, in the same manner as other information on the trim tag, with the words "REPLACEMENT TAG" in letters measuring at least one-eighth (1/8) of an inch in height, or

b. any trim tag plate which has been altered from its original manufactured condition so as to change any of its numbers, symbols, or codes; and

3. "Motor vehicle" means the same as defined in Section 1-134 of Title 47 of the Oklahoma Statutes.

Koda

That's good to know. My perspective is from the OEM side as I'm the certification label guy for my plant, amongst other jobs. I was unaware of that legislation, but, unlike most laws, I like this one.

rocketraider

I like that statute too. Ought to be adopted nationwide.

Something tells me POCI didn't do due diligence on this law when they started allowing data plates restamped to a car owner's specs a few years ago. It's why ANY 64-72 GTO has to be viewed with suspicion, and why a stand-up seller should provide PHS documentation on a high dollar car.

Come to think, the OK law may have been a reaction to POCI's data plate practices. About the same timeframe...

joe_padavano

So under that law, it is illegal to crush and melt down a car. Yeah, good, clear law...

4+4+2=10

No law is perfect, but junking is not illegal.

B. Paragraph 1 of subsection A of this section shall not apply to:

joe_padavano

It's still a blunt instrument. Federal law (18 U.S.C. § 511) even allows the removal and replacement of the VIN tag "...if the removal, obliteration, tampering, or alteration is reasonably necessary for the repair..." It's gonna be tough to do cowl rust repair otherwise. And let's be serious here. There is NOTHING on a cowl tag that ties it to a VIN. There's no way to prove a cowl tag has been swapped (unless the year or model or body style don't match, in which case that person is a moron).

smcfadden5598@gmail.com

Thank you for all of your responses.. I think I’m going to pass on this one. The cowl tag looks glued on, no paperwork, and someone selling for someone else..

I’m really wanting the real deal! A 1964 442 4spd convertible..

Oldsmaniac

For me as mentioned above its a big deal even for a plain nothing special car.. And a bigger deal for a special car that needs a trim tag to back up what is said to be true, like bench seat vs buckets, 4spd vs auto and the like.

joe_padavano

None of which is on a Fremont cowl tag anyway.

4+4+2=10

I think this is a good move. A cloud of doubt will follow this car forever.

Koda

Well said.

Oldsmaniac

Here is a link with a little more clarity on Fremont Trim Tags....

http://www.ultra-high-compression.com/page17.html