Jferr45

Hi all. I'm looking to buy a 1970 442 w-30 and would like some advise on value. The car is my fathers which he bought back in 1986 with a blown engine. He did replace the block, so it does not match the car. It does however have the original heads, carb, exhaust, alternator, water pump, radiator. The cam has been reground to make it run better on pump fuel. The car was in a collision and the fender door and hood were repainted, it has one genuine w-30 fender, the other is a standard 442 fender. Has red inner fender wells. I'm not sure if the hood is original and not sure how to check. Other than that the car is basically original, paint, interior, etc and in good condition. The picture attached is the best I have, please have a look.

I'm hoping someone can give some advise on value. For financial reasons he needs to sell, so I want to come up with a price that's fair for both of us. I've always loved this car and plan on keeping it for a very long time.

Thanks,
John

jaunty75

The fact that the car has its original carburetor and water pump doesn't change the fact that it does not have its original engine. So it is no longer "numbers matching." The effect of this on value? I don't know for sure, but certainly it lowers it.


For what it's worth, the Old Cars Price Guide lists the value of a '70 442 W-30 2-door hardtop in showroom condition in the low $40,000's. At the next level down, "car show" condition, the value is in the $25,000 to $30,000 range.

While the guide doesn't say, I assume these are values for cars with original parts, so I would guess the non-original engine would lower these values.


Another source of prices is Collector Car Market Review.

http://www.collectorcarmarket.com/co...442-value.html

If you do like they say and add 25% for the W-30 option, values range from $25,000 to $55,000 depending on condition. Again, I presume these are for cars with their original engines. Lower them accordingly.


Pinpointing even a semi-exact value for a car like this with most parts original but not the engine is difficult. It would be interesting to see what a car like your father's would get at an auction.

allyolds68

Does the car have any paperwork? If it's an auto does it still have the matching OW tranny?


Documentation, in this case, is what sets the value for the car

Jferr45

Jaunty75 & allyolds68,

Thank you for replying.

How bad is the value affected by the non matching motor? The car does have the original auto tranny, however, he had it freshened up at the same time as the motor.

He is checking into paper work. He did buy the car off the second owner. What kind of paper work would be needed? I believe he has the original title and is tracking down the build sheet, which he believes he has as well.

Thanks,
John

droptopron

With a '70 you can confirm its a 442 from the VIN (44 as the second & third digits) but you can not confirm its a W-30. Anything that proves that is what you want. Most likely the title won't but a build sheet / broadcast card would or maybe some paperwork from the orig dealer. In a round about way. if its an automatic the Turbo 400 should be a code OW. The trans also has a VIN stamping on it. If you have the OW trans with the VIN stamping matching the car then you have a W30. As long as the hood was replaced with a factory hood (fiberglass over steel frame) and not an aftermarket (all fiberglass going by the time frame you provided) I don't think the value would be adversely effected.
Good luck. I hope it works out.

dnmfranco

Broad cast cards which in 70 they put the w-30 option on there
if he has that that proves all

the non numbers matching motor will hurt but not as much as other years

Jferr45

The VIN does have a "M" in it which I believe is what designates the cassis as a w-30. Is that not the case?

Jferr45

Also, what kind of ballpark hit does value take with non matching engine? 5, 10, 15% ? why does it not affect the "70" as much as other years? I'm trying to educate myself the best I can before making an offer.

Thanks

dnmfranco

70 is the pinnacle year for A bodies and w specific regards to Olds its eben more apparent.
70's as a whole get more money than other years period. Look at sales, 70 w 30's get more than other years where less w-30's were made in those respected years.

far as percentage off I would think no more than 10 percent. But I'm not a 70 guy just know that they get more as a whole

dnmfranco

m designates Lansing plant however does not designate a w-30 by virtue of being built there.
however if not built in Lansing then you rule out w-30 right away.

drop top olds

The lack of original block probably does not matter to you since you knew it was not number matching when your Father owned it. I understand you want to set a "fair" market value, but for you it seems to be a non factor. For most "M" (Lansing) cars broadcast cards are very rare, so documenting a W-30 will fall to if the unique pieces are there. Extra braces, OW transmission, etc. I guess if you will penalize the value for the non original block I would lean towards the lower end of the "penalty" scale. Maybe 10-15%. Ultimately it the value is based on what you are willing to pay.

allyolds68

That's a myth. Probably less than 1% of the cars built in Lansing were W30's. (though ALL W30's were built in Lansing)


Paperwork for a W30 is what differentiates between the car being a 442 with a bunch of W30 add-on parts and a true W30. Big difference in value.

Jferr45

Let's assume for the sake of this discussion that it is a genuine w30 with a non matching block. What kind of value range are we looking at. I would like to give him something in the ball park of what he could reasonably get for the car selling it to someone else. I won't be getting any kind of "family discount"

allyolds68

Tough to call without more pics. You say it's in mostly original paint. Have you checked the cowl tag to make sure it's the original color? Does it have any bubbling or rust? Are the trunk and floors solid? Base of the windshield solid? An undocumented W30 needing a restoration is less than $10k. From the pic you showed it appears to be in better shape than that.

MDchanic

The problem is that to properly answer your question, we can't assume that it is a genuine W30.

YOU can assume (and, in fact, positively KNOW) that is it is a W30, but that has NO effect on the car's value on the market (though it does affect its value to you).

The value of a W30 above that of a "regular" 442 is based on the fact that it is an original W30, so proving that it is original is essential to establishing that extra value.
If, as stated above, you have the W30-only OW TH400 transmission, and that transmission is stamped with the VIN-derivative of your car, then you can reasonably prove that it is an original W30. If not, then the difference in value is made up exclusively by crumpled bits of yellowed paper.

- Eric

halfmoontrail

I'll bite...the car in the picture is worth $20,000 if the OW trans is numbers-matching with VIN derivative.

If not, and no other W30 documentation is available, the car is worth $10,000.

Just my opinion,

Steve

Jferr45

Thank you for your reply. To add some more details, the paint is starting to pop on the quarters and the lower part of the doors. The seats are in fair condition, the rest of the interior is fine. The engine could use to be stripped I and painted. Misc wiring work in the car is needed for it to be correct. The tranny cooler is not original. The radiator needs to be repaired as well.

Based on this, are we still at about 20,000 for a genuine w-30? I am going to check the numbers on the trans now.

Jferr45

Which numbers am I looking for to match the trans to the car?

Thanks

Jferr45

So I have checked the numbers on the tranny and it is a correct transmission for the car and the numbers do match, so that is good. I welcome all opinions on value. I plan on loading up some pictures later on.

Thanks

jensenracing77

It also needs to have a tag on the side with the OW on it. With it being the numbers matching transmission it has to be an OW or it is not a W-30.

Even if it is an OW tag and the numbers matching transmission, it don't help value. The OW tag is reproduced. The ONLY way to get W-30 value is if you have the broadcast card or original dealer paperwork for the car. I just sold a fairly solid 70 W-30 that needed restored but no documentation. Did not have the original transmission or engine. I almost had to give the car away to get rid of it. I ended up pulling the remaining W-30 parts and selling it for $3K. I could have parted it out for more money.

We need more pictures of all the car to help, inside and out and under before we can help much. Even if it is family you can not pay W-30 price if there is no documentation to back it up. If you want to anyway that is fine but you will never get your money out of it when you sell it. The fakes are so plentiful that it is critical to have paper work.

jensenracing77

Also, Like mentioned above. On a real W-30, A non numbers matching block with all the correct parts on it does not affect the value as much as it did. It will lower the price at most 10%. Again, That is if it has all the other correct parts and correct OW transmission.

Octania

Or, for 1970 at least:

All W30's will have the 344xx0M... VIN, built in Lansing

But, not all Lansing built "M" VIN, "344..." VIN cars are W30's.

Jferr45

It is an OW transmission with matching numbers. Is paperwork still needed for it to pull"w-30" value? The transmission tag sure looks like it's been there a while. My father is going to look through the paperwork he has to see if there are any original docs. Here are some pictures I had my brother take showing some of the areas that need attention.

Jferr45

Having a hard time posting multiple pictures, let me try again

Jferr45

Looks like one at a time

Jferr45

And another

Jferr45

Steering wheel is rough, but the dash and most of the interior is decent

Jferr45

Undercarriage

Jferr45

Exhaust

Jferr45

1/4 panels are starting to bubble

Jferr45

Frame looks decent

Jferr45

Last one

jensenracing77

That pretty much proves it is a real W-30. The only problem is that on resale, people know that the OW tag is reproduced and can be changed. It without a doubt helps alot. If you ever restore the car I would NOT touch that tag and let it show age. I would also take tones of pictures of that tag now and document the year on the picture.

A sharp eye can tell a repop OW tag from an original tag so that also helps. If you are able to locate the broadcast car you should scan it and get a safe deposit box for it. That piece of paper is worth alot of money. If the back seat has never been out of the car it could still be under the back seat. I bought an undocumented 70 W-30 almost 3 years ago. When I got it home I pulled the back seat and found the broadcast card. That card likely doubled my value.

jensenracing77

If you come up with the broadcast card and it has the correct carburetor alternator and distributor, My opinion and without better pictures, it would be $20K. It is a standard floor shifter and no rally pack with manual brakes. From what I also find... If someone wants a W-30 they either want a 4 speed or if they want an automatic they want A/C with it. Not to take anything away from your car but just mentioning what I see.

Looks like a great car to have.

64Rocket

From what i see the air cleaner is missing the top, with the door and vacuum pot.
I'm only guessing but that master may be for drum brakes, or does it have drum brakes?
Also does the hood have the steel frame?
The one pic of the floor looks to have some pretty good rust starting.
Looks like the carpet is in much need of replacing.
how is the dash where it meets the windshield ?

What are those heads in the back round of one pic?
Gene

classicmuscle442

In the master cylinder picture you can see the crisp lines of the red inner fender bump ups, there original. One more thing to help on W30 proof.

Jferr45

Excellent information. The OW tag will be pampered as this looks like the only real proof that this is an authentic w-30. Unfortunately we could not track down the build sheet for the car. He does have the original protector plate that came with it. So with no broadcast card, the value takes a hit I presume?

He does have the correct air cleaner in the house; paid a good amount for it and wanted to keep it nice. The fender wells are originals, but when the engine blew there was a small fire and one got damaged - melted/burnt mildly. The car has disc front drum rear. And a steel lined hood. Years back rats attacked the carpet, so he pulled it out. He does have a new carpet for the car. I think that rust spot is one of the only on the floors. But again, my brother was under the car not me.

I'm certainly learning a lot in this process and appreciate all of your help. I'm Really hoping my father and I can work something out.