Nor Cal Andy

First off I love my Olds.. But Im not so fond of the lack of affordable available options for making the engine and drivetrain powerful fuel efficient and dependable. Now before posting this I read all the bs about non olds this and stupid swap that.. Ok so thats your car and this is my car and $$$$. So I have been researching the LS swap (BTW the LS motor was designed at BUICK...) and a stock Iron LS with the aluminum heads is a very dependable inexpensive powerplant that lends itself to a lot of modifications and very little $$$$ both in the fuel injected or carb versions. Im lookign at a overdrive trans either auto or manual.

So if anyone else is looking at doing this also lets start a thread that is a place to exchange some ideas.

I would prefer the naysayers and purists that think its sacrilage not turn this into a hate on LS fest. Remember that hot rodding and the car culture has always been centered around innovation and modification..

ToBiN!

I Love the LS engine. Nascar inspired head design, excellent flow through stock heads, very easy to make huge power!

I am currently building a "budget LS1." I picked up an engine from a 2000 burban, cast block, alum heads, 5.3L. The amazing thing about the cast blocks is the 5.3L is a 3.9" bore and the 5.7 (LS1) is a 4" bore. Same stroke! So the object is to bore they cylinders out to 4" and mate it up with the below assets.

All together I have a Weiand LS6 intake thats been cnc machined to match some 241 cast heads with upgraded valve springs capable of making over 600 Hp. On the intake side I have had it pushed out to match the Nitrous Dave's 85mm Nitrous plate and my 85mm Pro Performance throttle body. I was looking for a Chevelle, Nova, or 1st gen Camaro for the swap when I came across the 69 Olds I am building, but I can't stand on putting the LS into the Olds since I found out I have a 80k mile numbers matching car.

So for now I will build this Cutlass, but keep an eye out for a nice 1st gen camaro for the LS1.

Nor Cal Andy

Nice I have an all original numbers matching 66 cutlass convertible 330 320hp high compression motor and ST300 trans. Cant figure out how to tell if its a switch pitch. that so far the only modification is Im putting in a ac dash with all the ac components from a 67. I started to try and repair the dash to window area but found my dash was way to rust to save. I have only cut the dash out so far so I can still go the completely stock way but havent quite decided. I dont think the car is that rare. Its options were power steering, brakes, power top, and power antenna. It was white with maroon red interior. Any idea how rare or not rare this car may or may not be?

ToBiN!

What does this have to do with a "legitimate LS discussion" again?

Aceshigh

Honestly this sub-forum was created just a month or so ago to keep the nay-sayers out of these discussions.
There's probably 1 in 20 guys here who share the interest of pro-touring modifications or engine swaps.
Welcome to the section where the ideas are welcome.

I'd like to build a list of guys who have done the swap, or realistically plan to within the next year. (not dreamers)
So we can share tips and tricks.

I've already done a GTO LS/4L60e swap into my other classic, so you know where I stand.
< Avatar..... My 1970 442 tribute is not rare either. So value isn't a concern of mine.

Any questions you have, most I can direct you to a source as I've been
doing alot of research into parts and things that work for the A-bodies myself.
I already have my F-body LS oil pan and Edelbrock SS headers for it as well.
I'm piecing it together slowly because this year moving into a bigger house is priority #1.

I've done a parts list and farm out options in a sticky on Nastyz28 for when I did my 2nd gen.

gearheads78

Like Aces said this section was created as a safe zone to discuss non Olds powered engines including swaps. At the same time we don't want people bashing your ideas we also don't want it to turn in to an us vs them debate coming from this section side. Make sure to keep the thread on track and don't make it a whine fest that other people on the board don't like what you are doing.

I have not personally done a swap but I have built some fast LS1 powered cars including my last one that was a mild street car capable of high 10's with no power adders. The potential of these motors is incredible. I will try to do my best to answer any questions that I know the answers to.

Bluevista

I saw this '72 last Summer at the local cruise but I couldn't find the guy.
If I ever see him I'll shoot him over here if he does computer stuff.
Believe it or not but some guys have never heard of these forums, their loss.
It looked okay, think it could be a little neater in the wiring department but it works. Too bad the windshield washers aren't hooked up, probably no room for the washer bottle.
Did some gauge mods too.

Solon9-21002s-1.jpg

Solon9-21001s.jpg

Solon9-21005s.jpg

compedgemarine

the only Olds I have left is my 70 SX conv. that I have had since 82. it is number matching and fairly rare so I plan on leaving it correct. that said I also have a 65 mustang fastback that I am building custom suspension front and rear based on C5 corvette parts and it is most likely getting an LS with 6 speed manual. why? as you said it is my car and $$$ and ford motors are not great IMO and 65 Mustang suspension is a step above a John Deer tractor. the fastback was a nothing car (not a shelby or GT or even 4 barrel car) so I dont feel like I am cutting any history and the LS is without a doubt on of the best engine designs in a while. I personally like to drive my cars hard and enjoy them so why not do it with the best you can afford. street rods run every engine in every chassis and that seems to be fine but god forbid you swap an engine in a 60's or 70's car. never understood that. build your car to make you happy and right now the LS will do that for cheap money. plus if Olds was still around what engine do you think they would be using?

67 Cutlass Freak

Alright guys, I'm all for saving money, making our cars more reliable, and more powerful at the same time. I'm not considering switching my car over to the LS-1 platform, but I am curious as to what the actual details are for this swap. I'm going to make a list of the areas that I'm curious about. Hopefully you guys can fill in the blanks so everybody can learn.
1) Cost of salvage yard motor, trans, computer & harness?
2) Fabricate frame/ motor mounts, or what works?
3) Transmission crossmember, linkage.
4) Drive shaft - custom length/ balance.
5) Radiator to be used?
6) Fuel pump/ in tank and fuel lines.
7) Front crossmember clearance issues with oil pan.
8) Headers to be used? Custom exhaust.
9) Throttle cable or linkage.

I'm sure that there's a lot of stuff I'm forgetting. I think that there's a strong trend right now in pro touring. I see a lot of magazines highlighting modern engine transplants or fuel injection conversions. I'm very curious as to overall costs of such a conversion and I'm not talking about all new, but let's call it junk yard finds, type pricing. Also what kind of total man hours is involved with this type of swap. What kind of surprises should we expect in this swap. Also what are the best upgrades for the LS-1 platform?

compedgemarine

I think it would depend on what you are swapping it into. for my Mustang I have to fabricate everything. if you are putting it into a cutlass then remember that it is an A body so anything made for a Chevelle would fit the same. that helps as there are mounts and headers made for all that. do an internet search for LS into Chevelle and you will find most anything. as for cost of engines and trans you have a couple of ways to go. the 5.3 iron block is the cheapest and you can still make good power with simple changes. if you are wanting an LS3 or LS7, etc then they are bigger $$$. for mine I plan on finding a wrecked corvette or camaro so I can pull all the wiring, brackets, etc as you never know what little part you may need. if you know any used car dealers you may be able to go to the auction where they sell off the wrecks. as for the fuel system you can use an in tank pump, several companies make them or you can use a frame mounted pump. If I remember right there is a corvette setup that returns the fuel to a frame mounted pump and filter assembly. for the throttle you use a Lokar or similar cable or if the motor is newer it may be fly by wire so you would need the throttle pedal from the donar car. I did a swap for someone that involved an LS3 with fly by wire in a 1962 pontiac conv. the thing was smooth as silk and ran like a raped ape if you jumped on it.

gearheads78

jozw30

Building a 55 88 sedan with an LS2 and 4L60E.

Bought the car with no drive train or interior and has a Trans Am from stub tacked on it. redoing the front with a FatMan stub. Motor is sitting on the stand in the corner while I get rid of the mouse nests and weld in new floors.

Have done the Olds restoration thing for so long (currently have a show winning 72 W30 4 speed as well), I wanted a different challenge. Can't wait to get the frame stub done so I can start mocking up the engine and trans.

Joe

Aceshigh

Started a new thread to answer all these questions and list parts and other info.
Maybe the mod's can sticky, and add to it for a reference point for future inquiries.
Gearheads got some good info as well.

https://classicoldsmobile.com/forums...tml#post247575

Exactly.
You won't find much info specific to Cutlass or Olds.
I've looked and looked and looked.
Chevelle's and GTO's you will find your info needed.


Costs of conversions
Anywhere from doing 100% of it yourself for only a few thousand to 10's of thousands with an LS9 installed by a pro shop. Thing you have to realize here is, the majority of swappers end up putting a modern trans in with it because of the overdrive features. You can go budget on everything just to get it in cheap, or you can blow your *** inside out buying the best of the best.

What kinds of surprises can you expect with the swap:
Lots of grins. Lots better MPG. Capacity for alot more use of your classic during the summer. Those 455 big blocks built for 450hp+ aren't going to see much street time when gas is back up to $4.25 a gallon for premium this coming summer. Getting 5mpg just isn't pleasant when it costs $100 a tank to go romp down the block a few times. Not when you can drive your car nationwide on Power Tour and get over 20-25mpg out of it with a 6 speed and over 400hp.

Pro-touring is the next generation of classic modernization with some badass technology.

Another thing people overlook is the weight differences in the transmissions.
Mind you different strength internals can make these weight more or less.
Super T10 4speeds- 70lbs.
TH350 short tail- 125 lbs.
TH400- 134 lbs.
4L80E- 178 lbs.
T-56 6 speed double overdrive is ~125lbs.
TR6060 Newest 6 speed is ~+40lbs more.

Point is, engines have gotten smaller and lighter with more power.
but transmissions have gotten bigger and heavier with more gears.

garys 68

My goal is to build an updated version of a 442, sort of like the new camaro, mustang, etc. Oh and also ger over 20mpg, with cruise control, modern AC, reliable wiring, etc.
I hope to have my engine in next week. 05 5.3 L59, keeping it stock for now.
Build thread for car is here:
https://classicoldsmobile.com/forums...442-clone.html
Most of the LS motor specific info here:
http://www.ls1tech.com/forums/conver...442-build.html
I'm also posting some other interior specific stuff here.
http://www.pro-touring.com/showthrea...l-build-thread
Still to come, reupholsterd cloth seats with better support (matching headliner) and fold down rear seat.
This is my 2nd LS swap. First was a 68 corvette. So I'm finding fewer isslues with this one.

Nor Cal Andy

I like the LS with an overdrive idea for a lot of different reasons. The conversion is essentially a bolt in. So I can keep all my stock parts. The fuel mileage is very important to me as i grew up riding around in a 66 convertible and we went on alot of road trips. Fast forward to now I want my kids to have the same expirience and I want to be able to afford the gas and have the car ultra reliable easily fixed. I have a 442 convertible with very low miles that was passed on to me by my stepfather and I plan to pass that car and this one to my kids. The LS platform lends itself to alot of HP and good fuel mileage and crusing manners. I also plan disc brakes and possibly air ride.. Although I dont know if it fits into the reliability thing.



Im glad this forum is hear to exchange some ideas. I have found some interesting ideas for updating the steering and cooling system.

A power steering box out of a newer jeep grand cherokee is a direct bolt in just have to change the rag joint and modify the power steering hoses. Has anyone done this?? What about a newer suburban radiator that is also a direct bolt in.........


Thanks
Andy

Aceshigh

I always say, If you're going to do it, you should do it right, and that my friend is EXACTLY
what you are doing. You are totally on track to making one very badass pro-touring Oldsmobile.
You're not pulling any punches.

Going with bigger disc brakes too I hope!!!! Gotta protect that badass beast.



Now this I'm interested in seeing more of.
I'm subscribed if you can keep us posted with a tutorial.

Jamesbo

https://classicoldsmobile.com/forums...ap-w-pics.html

Nor Cal Andy

Ok so another question do I go the easy route and throw a carb on a 5.3 LS motor or do I try to do all the computer junk. Im not a huge fan of all the computer controls. I have seen the kit with the MSD box to control the coil packs. What do you think. I want to run an overdrive trans if I stay automatic but will propably go with a 5 speed based purely on price.


Andy

gearheads78

Unless you are building a WOT race car you are wasting time using a carb on an LS1 motor.

compedgemarine

I agree with Richard, the whole EFI thing is not as tough as you think. there are a couple of places that will modify the original harness and computer to eliminate the stuff you dont need and beyond that you just hook up a few wires and it will take care of itself. the only time computers get complicated is if you want to do some truly custom stuff on your own. never be afraid to learn new stuff, you may be suprised what you can do.

Aceshigh

Agreed.

If you want a carb'd LS1 you still have to buy the controller for the individual coil packs like ya said.
Then if you want the OD modern electronic transmissions, you'll still need a separate computer to run those (~$800-$900)

Going with a TKO requires no computer controller (IIRC) but I'd stick with the T-56's or TR6060 because
they're not a niche market trans, they're full blown production for 18 years in the best performance cars.
This means rebuild kits and parts are more abundant and cheaper.

For me, going carb'd is going backwards.

garys 68

The HUGE advantage with the LS motors over SBC or even LT1 is in the heads and sequential port fuel injection.
The heads flow great and make lots of hp with carbs or FI.
The SFI and computer controls allows for relatively high CR and great low end torque. That's a big part of the reason these get great gas milage.
Keep the efi. If you dont want to mod the harness, there are places that do it pretty cheap.

Aceshigh

Yep.
There's just no comparing even an Oldsmobile big block head flow to modern small block GM Gen IV's.
L92 heads flow 330cfm out of the box, and they are cheeeeeeeap.

Big Block Olds head flow > http://nichibei.tripod.com/headflow.htm

Stock LS head flow > http://www.smokemup.com/tech/ls1.php

Stock L92 head flow > http://www.ls1tech.com/forums/genera...flow-data.html
http://www.carcraft.com/techarticles...ads/index.html

^ ^ That's why the LY6 truck engines are the best budget salvage pull choice IMO.

Nor Cal Andy

Ok I did some research and your right. EFI looks to be the way to go. Now heres what I have found and you tell me what you think. I found a 5.3 out of a 2004 chevy pickup with the full harness engine and trans. Complete I pull it and take what I need for $1000.00. What do you think it would cost to have the harness modified? Also will that fuel injection setup be enough to give me some power. I have a 2003 Chevy Avalanche with the same engine and trans but 4x4 and it doesnt have the best power. Its no slouch but definately not a tire burner. What mods would I have to do do to get it int the 350-400 hp range? Keeping in mind Id like to stay away from high dollar modifications. I was thinking headers which I will need for the install unless I can find some exh. manifolds from a chevy trailblazer SS I think is what it is. Would it be best to put a tuner or chip in it?>? What do you think.


BTW I found a great magazine today at the store its put out by Car Craft magazine its Called Engine Swaps and its is full of info about LS1 motors into A body cars they do a 1966 chevelle in there. It has some stuff about ford and mopar hemi's also.

gearheads78

Keep in mind your Avalanche weighs about 1500 more lbs than your Cutlass. Cam headers and tune you will make 375hp pretty easy with a 5.3

garys 68

I bought an 05 5.3 takeout, less than 50k miles with everything, including harness, TAC, and pedal for $900, and I was happy.
Check out these links for wiring and tuning info on a budget.
http://www.wait4meperformance.com/
http://www.lt1swap.com/wiringharness.htm
You really can do the harness yourself.
LS6 cam/springs cost about $300, with headers (or GTO stock exhaust manifolds) and a simple tune ( you can have that done when you have the ecu reprogrammed) will get you to over 350hp.
But if you want to tear up the tires on those little 14 x 8 wheels, any 6.0 will do it.

Aceshigh

Worth a read

http://www.ls1tech.com/forums/conver...-possible.html

Nor Cal Andy

So I did some research. I found a 5.3 LM7 truck motor iron block and aluminum heads. Undut under 100K miles no intake or accessories but I need the car stuff anyway.. Best part was the price $200.00 I know right!!! It has the coil packs and flexplate, water pumpe and the lower ac bracket which wont work but thats ok... Now here is my dilemma.. Hope someone can give me some insight...



My car has the original 330 w. 2 spd.in it right now. It was frozen but I broke it loose and got it to run ok. I know eventually Im going LS with a manual trans. Injection or carb to be decided later. It will take me a while to collect all the pieces and I want to drive my car this summer on some road trips 2-300 miles or so. I have a chevy 350 and a 4spd trans with headers from a 66 chevelle in my garage that is complete and ready to go into something. I have already decided to go with a GM Ls motor so for now what would I need to do to swap in the 350?? I have heard that I might need motor mounts from a chevelle and the plates that bolt to the crossmember is that true?? I figure if I swap this combo in that it will be easier later to drop in the LS and I have access to an adapter to mate the 4 spd to the LS motor.. I know alot of people say wait and just do the LS swap but I want to take the kids for some cruises this summer..

Please if anyone has some experience on doing the swap could you give me some info thanks..


Andy

66ninetyeightls

LOL I think this is the way to go for land yachts too!!!!

garys 68

Hey Andy, I'm doing an LS swap right now. It's set up for a BBC or SBC with a Muncie, so it probably relates to you. Your best bet is to put as much stuff on that you can reuse...sounds like what you're trying to do.
SBC or BBC chevelle mounts will work for an LS motor. A 621 BBC bell housing can be used on small or big blocks and LS motors. The 153 tooth housing wont. The flywheel will not be interchangable but an 11" BBC clutch/pressure plate will swap.
The 4 speed crossmember will work with chevelle mounts a SBC and a muncie. If you use 1" setback adapter plates you can keep that stock location too with the LS motor.
Anything else you want to know....just ask.

Aceshigh

There's a guy I met 5 or 6 years ago who did an LS swap into his Delta 88.
After he was done he said he'd be whoopin on people left and right and their faces were priceless.

If you've never done an engine swap before it might be beneficial to pay a shop to do it.
This project isn't for an amateur to learn on. Trust me, I know that first hand.
It will cost quite a bit more, but at least it will get done right. (in most cases)

Time and knowledge on my first one was an issue for me. Money wasn't.
Now I know a HELL of alot more then I did before, but back then it was still so new.

COcutlass72

I like it, I was going to put a crate 350 rocket in my cutlass, but the idea of have 350plus with 20to25 mpg and well I'm sold. I started looking and I've found tons of LS1 for anywhere to $900 to $1500.....

my car is a 72 cutlass automatic, would it kill it to have a auto trans and not the 6 speed? if I did do the 6speed would it match up with the original console?

when I get to the motor, I'm sold on this idea.

garys 68

A T56 6 speed will rquire cutting the tunnel, crossmember and driveshaft modes. A Richmond 5 or 6 speed is a direct bolt in. Keislers new T45 based trans are supposed to be too.
Gas milage with an auto will depend on your rear end ratio. If you have 3.72+ gears, your milage will be better but dont expect 20+ mpg. You really need your 70mph cruising rpm to be down near 2000 rpm to take advantage of the LS motors.
But if your trans is a BOP only bell housing, you might as well get an OD auto or manual trans.
Btw, consider a 6.0 iron block LQ4 or LQ9. They're cheaper, have more torque, more hp potential, and are available with lower miles. LS1 have not been made since 02 in f bodies and 04 in vettes and GTOs, so I'm always suspicious about "low mile" LS1 claims.

Aceshigh

Yep. Requires cutting.
f you want to know what is required, this is a good thread I saved awhile ago.
Install into a 66 GTO with a TON of pics.
http://www.pro-touring.com/showthread.php?63343-Viper-T56-6-Speed-in-a-1966-GTO-Install-Guide-%28long-lots-of-pics!%29

I did a road test in my 78z and my MPG was 20-21 highway on a 320 mile trip from St Louis back to
Chicago with 3.42 gears and a 25.66" tall tire. (275/45/17). Mind you this was the 4L60e automatic.

Obviously it's probably ~400-500lbs lighter though then my 442 tribute is. My 442 has a 27" tall tire
and I calculated it out with 3.73 gears and the T-56 final gear ratio of .5 I'd be cruising 65mph @ 1500 rpm.

I just didn't put it in yet because I'm not done with my welding classes.

These are the factory HP figures for all 3 engines. IMHO, the LY6 is the most desirable affordable truck engine.
It's got the L92 heads that flow 320cfm out of the box.

Gen III
LS1 The LS1 was rated at 350 hp (260 kW) and 365 lb·ft (495 N·m) since 2001 (LS6 Intake)
Source

LQ4 produces 300 horsepower (220 kW) to 325 horsepower (242 kW) and 360 lb·ft (488 N·m) to 370 lb·ft (502 N·m
LQ9 output to 345 hp (257 kW) and 380 ft·lbf (515 N·m).
Source

Gen IV
LY6 output is 385hp and 400ft lbs, with the L92 totally badass heads. Cost range is $2000-$2500 salvage pull.

I know a guy that got a ~70K GTO LS1 /T56 for $1800 and sold the T-56 for $1000......net $800 for his LS1. He was lucky.

If you swap the car intake onto the LQ9 Cadillac engines you will gain more hp over the LS1 though, but you lose torque.
Most people can't fit the very tall truck intakes under their hoods, not to mention they're fugly.