Jelmoer

Hello everyone,

I m trying to find some info about a cam i can buy.
First of all I really don't understand all the specs about cams.
So hopefully somebody can help me.
I have a 69 cutlass 350.
compression ratio 10.25;1
Th350
Originally 4bbl but now single fuel propane.
Use to have single exhaust.
now I put on a pypes dual system 2.5inch and x pype.
intake en exhaust manifolds are factory.
stall I don't know and rearend 2.56.
Rear tire size 255/60r15
It's a daily driver with also highway use.
With Power brake/vacuum.

Now my question about the cam I found.

It is an crane cams 803902
See photo for specs.

Is this something that works fine with my engine?
can I use new MELLING VS720 valve springs.

Is this cam better than the original cam or just a waist of time money.
Maybe in the future I want a better intake but that's all.

Anybody know the original cam specs because a read all other info on the Internet.

On FAQS 69 350 is 250/264






And melling OE replacement 296/274 on Rockauto





The Cam I found for my car

Thanks

olds 307 and 403

That first cam looks like the early 80's Olds 307 HO Vin 9 camshaft. It worked in a 8.5 to 1 Olds 307, will be even more mild in a higher compression Olds 350. Your factory cam is not the cam above the Crane, it is even more mild. I'm sure Joe will correct me, if I am wrong. The Crane cam will need more stall or it will be doggy off the line with the 2.56 gears.

Jelmoer

Thanks for now.
But you think the Crane Cam is a bad option for my car/combo.

Here where I live there are almost no parts to find for an oldsmobile. Like gears for an type O axle 10/12 bolt.
Shipping and taxes from USA are really expensive so I hoped I found a little upgrade with this cam.
But we wait for Joe with all the info💪🏻

olds 307 and 403

No, it should work OK, it is a fairly mild cam. It will perform much better with more stall. I ran a 9 to 1 Olds 350 with a 214/214 cam, 2350 stall 2004R and 2.78 gears with short 25" tall tires. Easy 1/4 block burnouts. My Daughter cooked the trans, so I swapped in the TH350 with factory 1600 stall. It would not even spin the tires, bigger cam raises the rpm range. My current SEFI 9.5 to 1 Olds 358 has the Edelbrock 204/214 cam installed at a 106 ICL, a TH350 with a 2000 to 2200 B+M economy high stall with 2.78 open gears with tall 275/60R15 tires. It launches pretty good with a less than ideal tune. You will need a timing chain and gears as well as gaskets. I know all about high prices being from Canada and our dollar currently sucking. I have 3.08 posi going in next Winter in my 12 bolt Type O. The posi was stupid expensive even with the good deal on gears from Dale, $1200 CAD. I still need a $400ish rebuild kit. I am planning on a TKX wide ratio 5 speed, the best of both worlds. How is performance off the line as is?

Jelmoer

So correct me if I'm wrong.

Yes it's a better cam but a mild one so perfect for an almost stock 350.
​I can put it in but it also needs an other torque/ stall converter wich I can't buy here haha.

Is it also worth mounting it now and maybe the stall converter in the future?
or am I loosing torque?

I still to try figure it out.
just hoped that gives some more air and fuel.
Now I'm loosing power when kickdown before going to next gear.
like it is out of fuel or floating valve springs.

Can i mount the melling valve or does it need something stronger?

My timing chain and everything is brand new.
The guy I bought it from changed it.
it is not the double chain but single one.

I a torque converter brand only(Oldsmobile)
or BUICK OLDSMOBILE and Pontiac?
Or does chevrolet 350 fits also(gues not)
because Chevrolet is easier to find.

the operating rpm range for this cam is 1500/4500
so need a converter around 2000 rpm
To test wich one i have just put it light on the parking brake and increase rpm?
When it starts to move that is the rpm of mine?

If i find a Converter is there something like a mark or color on it to recognise its rpm range?

I really haven't got a clue(oops)
Still learning every day.

Thanks again for you're help

Fun71

The factory cam was the 400084 which is very mild.
The Crane 260 cam will work quite well - I used a similar one in my 1970 350-4bbl engine with 2.56 rear gears.

Jelmoer

That's good news.
from 400084 to this is a little step up.
Did u use the original stall/torque converter?
if not remember wich one you had?
thanks for info

Fun71

Originally I used the factory torque converter, then later installed an 1800 RPM converter. Both worked well.

OLDSter Ralph

In my opinion......
As highlighted above, several things make me wonder.

First, changing from 4 barrel carb GASOLINE to PROPANE and "losing power when kickdown". This is a concern that needs a further look. Are you getting enough Propane that the engine needs ?

Second, the Crane cam is a slight step up from a 400084 OEM cam. It should work as well as the stock cam. It has slightly more duration and much more valve lift. Your engine is stock. You will need to get quality, new valve lifters. As far as valve springs, have them checked and buy new ones if they are weak and have them shimmed to correct height.

Jelmoer

Thanks for you're reply.

The cam is in a set with new lifters.
I was thinking about changing the valve springs.
But i dont have the tools for height measurement/shimming so have to look for a shop who knows more about it.

When the difference is almost nothing then its a waste of time/money.

What I meant with the 4bbl(gasoline) was how it was build in 69.
when I bought it it had a Rochester 4bbl with an Impco propane kit on top.
so it could drive on both fuels.
I recently took off he carburettor and now it's single fuel propane. Impco 425.
the problem was already there but now with the new exhaust it is like it has more power/torque.
When I drive.the car and give it full throttle it shifts back.
It makes speed and just before it shifts up it is more noise then power.
like the rpm is too high for the engine(don't know how much rpm)
so I was thinking about bad timing?

I checked it and last owner had put a brand new hei ignition on the car
the timing is set for gasoline and not for propane.
So I have to change the timing and need to adjust the travel of the vacuum and mechanical advance.
Now I have to play with springs and weights to see what will happen.
hopefully that will help to fix the problem.

if it runs nice then maybe I keep the original cam in.
Or not 🤣

OLDSter Ralph

You could have weak valve springs. You won't know until someone with a valve spring tester/checker can test your valve springs. Without a tachometer, you don't know what RPM's the engine is running. Weak valve springs usually show up at 4.000 to 4.500 RPM and higher.
Do you have a timing light ? If not, you are just guessing at what the timing is. I am not sure what ignition timing is needed for Propane. I also don't know if your engine is getting enough Air/Fuel mix.

You could gain some power with the Crane cam, but it sounds like you have other problems to solve first. What brand HEI do you have installed ?

Jelmoer

I have an innova 5568 timing light.
So i can drive with it connected and read the rpm.
Impco had some rule about setting the basic timing. 14+14+14 all in at around 2500.

I have a guide/book written by Franz Hofmann.(found him on Raso Enterprises fuelforum)
He says:

Engines over 9.8:1 (and no more than 11.0 to 1) should have the initial timing set at 4° with a total timing
of 32° btdc by 2600 rpm.

never exceed 42° because of knock.

I have to try to find the best curve for my engine

What about my ignition I don't know the brand.
I am not at my car right now and the next couple weeks already busy.
I think the vacuum advance on this type is already 18 degree and I have only needed 10/14 so I have to restrict it.

When I try to recurve the distributor I will let you know.

First i have to find s recurve kit.
so it won't be soon.
Aiming for 32 degree at 2500.
looks what initial is(ported).
Can try manifold but i gues 69 cutlass was always ported.
then lock the vacuum advance at 10.

Then in the future buy new valvesprings.
And a good machineshop.

I found some old bills I got with the car and the pushrods and lifters are new but didn't find a bill of new valve springs.

Maybe there are the original ones.

Thanks again and hope to give you all the answers when im figured it out.

VC455

Hi Jelmoer.

Here's a little education on reading the cam profiles, as well as my experience with an upgrade to your cam.

The important numbers on your cam card are the ones in the boxes marked "Lift" and "Cam Timing @ 0.050" Tappet Lift."

As lift numbers increase, your power at higher speed will increase.

As cam timing numbers increase, the power at low speed decreases and power at higher speed increases. If you increase timing numbers significantly, you will need to increase the rear axle ratio and converter stall speed to maintain low speed power.

As stated, your factory cam is 400084. That has lift of 0.400" and cam timing of 201° intake and 210° exhaust at 0.050 tappet lift.

From your cam card: lift of 0.456 and 0.484" and cam timing of 204° intake and 216° exhaust at 0.050" tappet lift. Compared to the 400084, the lift is a nice increase and cam timing is just a bit longer.

Here's my experience.

I had the 400084 cam in a 1970 Olds Cutlass with 255/60-15 tires, 4-barrel carburetor, automatic transmission with stock converter, and a 2.78 rear axle ratio.

I changed to a 393859 cam and made no other changes (no change to converter or rear axle ratio).

The 393859 cam had these numbers: lift of 0.472" and cam timing of 222° intake and 222° exhaust at 0.050" tappet lift.

That cam was a considerable step up in cam timing (a MUCH bigger step up than the cam you are considering).

I could tell there was a bit less power at the start, but within about a second the acceleration increase was wonderful.

Translating my experience to your question:

You will have no problem in retaining your existing converter and axle ratio. You may feel just a bit less power at the start and then better acceleration after that.

Your choice of cam is a good one for not needing to change converter or axle ratio.

Receive best wishes.

Gary

olds 307 and 403

Well said, as duration increases, low speed torque in sacrificed for increased horsepower. Myself with basic Olds 350's and 403's with 2.56 and 2.78 gears with a higher stall they good barely spin the tires off the line with the shitty 1600 rpm stall. The base D9 factory 2004R converter, which stalls around 1900, 300 higher than the TH350, worked fine with the 204/214 cam. Switch to 2200 to 2500 and they would blow off the tires. I also ran lock up converters on the TH250/350C and 2004R trans. That way, while having around 250 to 300 rpm slippage, the lock up eliminated the loss. Give the cam a try, degree it and see how it performs as is.

gs72

Your transmission might be slipping under high load.

Jelmoer

Hi Gary,

Thanks your help.
Something like camshaft for dummies.(me)
I already understand this is a really mild cam but will work for my car and is little step up.
But i was wondering if it is worth all the effort.
to buy all the extra parts.

And because I didn't have the tools for measuring valve spring height its going to be a bit of extra work.

First I have to change the cam and valves.
Then cam break in and drive to a machineshop.

There they have to take out valve train and springs again 🤪

Is really noticeable/necessary to shimming the valvesprings?
i understand it is the best way to get maximum power.
But it is not a complete rebuild so there are losses everywhere in the engine.

Compression is good on all cylinders.

I never heard of it but that doesn't mean anything.

Final question can I use the original length pushrods?

They are recently changed and maybe new cam/lifters and valvesprings gaskets are enough to buy.
And special brake in oil.
I have to find the exact procedure because I'm a virgin.

Jelmoer

Okay that's also an option.

oil is clean and smells not burned.
From start/idle to full throttle it drives good.
When driving in 3rd then kickdown it also drives good but just before it is shifting to 3rd again it lost power.
More to check?

Fun71

Gary, all the data I have seen showed that cam as 186º/204º duration @ .050" lift on 109º LSA. Where did you get the 201/210 numbers?

Jelmoer

Does that make the step from original to the new cam better or worse?
i try to follow and absorp all new information.

Ths is all I can find on the net and they are close to original.
But I can't find oem specs.

olds 307 and 403

Those numbers are my understanding, the Crane cam or even the generic 204/214 cam is a step up from the base stock cam. The 350 4 speed cam is a nice upgrade. It is 216/217 .472/.472 113LSA. I ran a 214/214 .472/.472 110LSA in a 9 to 1 Olds 350. It idled smooth like the 204/214 and stock cam. It produced 16 inches at idle but needed more stall or it was just Ok off the line. I believe the 204/214 had 18 or 19 inches, according to my gauge.

VC455

Hi Kenneth.

I got information on many cams of that era from a presentation by Olds engineers at Lindahl Oldsmobile (Minneapolis) in the early '70s.

Their numbers seem internally consistent among cams, but your numbers may be the better fit.

I'd like to see some verifiable confirmation of these old cams.

Gary

Jelmoer

Another question I was wondering.
New cam means new bearings or no problem if the old bearings aren't worn or damaged?
dont know if bearings are in different thickness/size with each aftermarket cam.
thnx again

Fun71

Assuming the 400084 cam is .400” / .400” lift and 187 / 204 duration, then the Crane with .456” / .484” lift and 204 / 216 duration will be better. It should give an increase in power and still have strong low RPM torque.

The valve springs were discussed above. When I rebuilt my 1970 350-4bbl engine in 1982, I used a Melling 262 cam with .435” lift and 204 duration with the original valve springs. The engine would pull strongly to 5000 RPM and then bog and fall flat above that. After installing new valve springs the engine pulled to 5800 RPM.

Charlie Jones

No problem using bearings that are not badly worn or damaged'
Cams and cam bearings are all one standard size.

Jelmoer

Finally an answer i understand at once😉
thanks

Jelmoer

Okay then I order new springs.
Do you know if the MELLING VS720 are ones to use?
These dont have an damper
The ones that are mounted have an inner spring/damper on it(i gues it was on the exhaust valve)
I normally order on Rockauto so if you or anybody else can help me to buy the proper valve springs.
I will be very happy.

Do they Also sell brake in oil at Rockauto?

Jelmoer

It was already on the car when i bougt it.
The text on the distributor is DST1893 Bl19j3
When I Google DST1893 is see some cheap one(think Chinese).

Mabey they are bad or limited at higer rpm.
Dont have any experience with HEI.
Can I test the quality of this one?

I think for now I set timing/curve right and testdrive.
Then change the valve springs with new one.(will be weeks/months from now)
Hope I get an reaction wich one to choose.
And if de inner spring damper is important?
can i use the old ones or just buy the MELLING VS720 and dont need to put in the inner spring at all.
Then testdrive again.

And somewhere in the future change my cam.

At every step I can feel/see the difference.
And hope each step is a little one forward.

Its a daily driver so i dont want to do all at once

olds 307 and 403

Yes, you need to figure out the curve and go from there. Tge aftermarket Chinese HEI has curve similar to a points distributor. Also make sure there is 12 volts at the distributor. I would not bother changing valve springs till you upgrade the cam. I would be much more worried if it still has the nylon coated cam gear. On older cars like your 68, they tend to fall apart and get sucked into the oil pump pick up.

Jelmoer

I thought when first swap the valvesprings I can drive it to a machineshop who can measure valve height and new spring tension.
A lot is new on this engine and a couple years back they put in hardened seats.
But i never find any bill of new valvesprings so i think i just want to replace them.

And maybe feel the difference between old cam and springs to the old cam and new springs.

Sometimes its nice to know what was causing the problem.

When i put in a new cam i have to break it in and then later drive it to the machine shop.

Cam wil be at home and valvesprings somewhere else if i have them shimmed.
And i don't want to take the heads off.

Voltage is good.
Cam gear is new(newer style)
Oilpump is new
oil and filter new
Valvoline VR1 RACING 20W50
Original 4bbl 310hp
Th350 new filter and oil
compression good and equal on all 8

Jelmoer

I got a recurve kit.
try some different springs(lighter ones).
Changed the timing a bit and it's is driving a lot better at higher rpms.
For now its gonna be trial and error.

Cam/spring isnt gonne be soon so no new update soon

Thnx for al the help and info.
Best oldsmobile forum👍🏻