coppercutlass

so I got a call from a friend that he had a 1973 350 for sale for 70 bucks. It got me to thinking I should build a nice stocker style build. nothing fancy just freshening up the short block and most of the money will be in the heads. What I ended up with was an amazingly low mile 350 with minima wear. The bearing surfaces are all in great shape and the original bearings have very very little wear even the piston skirts showed minimal wear . I had a spare block I got in a parts deal for free 2 years ago it has studs and straps and is a std. bore so im gonna go ahead and use it. I got a deal in the works for some #4 heads for 75 bucks and a friend of mine is going to re build them for an undisclosed price but im expecting to have atleast 450 into the heads with machining and the valve job and that will be using some bbo intake valves not new ones of course. The key to this combo is the smaller dish 14 cc pistons and the smaller 64 cc chambered heads. I plan on running a nice mild cam and plan on keeping the compression in the 9.25 to 1 range . Doing my math for the re ring kit , cam bearing installation , new cam , used intake , and all that fun stuff I should be in the 1500 range all in all and that's giving me wiggle room if I want to deck the block etc etc. This is not a rebuild by all means but im starting out with some really good stuff so im able to keep the price down. I started teardown and all that funstuff today. In the next few days I plan on measuring the crank and rod journals to make sure im within spec . I plan on using the comp cams roller tip rocker kit which I have one I got for free from a friend. im going to have to buy studs and I have guide plates . I have an oil pump and timing chain from a previous build with low miles im going to use. This will be just a tad bit better than my old 9 to 1 350 with the comp 260h cam . So it should be a 13 sec engine. This is just a back up engine should anything happen to my current 355 I have something I cruise around with have plenty of pep and still have fun at the track .

Lars

sounds like a fun project... I like to see the basic builds with the 73-77 pistons good luck

coppercutlass

That's what this is all about . Just a fun project to keep me busy during the winter months.

80 Rocket

Is there a ridge in the cylinders?

If the cylinders and crank are in really good shape, I would put rings and bearings in it. I would also hand polish the crank and dingo ball hone the cylinders. Also, do you have measuring tools yet? Bore gauges, mics, deck bridge or magnetic dial indicator base? You can get these things at a decent price now and is essential when doing these po-boy builds.

At the end of the day, it's these really low buck builds that are essential in learning. These are the stepping stones to being able to do higher horsepower stuff. Some may say you are throwing money away, I say you learn more by doing your own low buck build and having it fail (as long as you can figure out why it failed) then paying tens of thousands of dollars going to some tech school.

Did the hot rod pioneers of the 50s and 60s go to some automotive racing technology school? Nope, they went to the race track. They broke stuff. Take your time, learn all you can, be prepared to diagnose failure, and most importantly KEEP DOING WORK SON!

coppercutlass

No ridge and I'm gonna polish it on my friends lathe. I plan on just doing the digle ball hone. I have more fun doing the low buck stuff I put some coin into my current 355 and its nerve wrecking . I do have all the tools to measure everything out . Invested in those years ago lol. Only had 2 failures in the past. 1 was because I was using old cast flat tops and they decided to quit and I cracked 4 skirts. The other failure was my current 355 . The camshaft wiped out the cam bearings because it had run out but I found that because I found coolant in the cylinders. That I think was just shitty head gaskets. Buts its fun and I've learned a lot.

455man

Sounds interesting. Keep us up to date. I'm getting to the point that i prefer to do as much as I can myself.

FMB42

In my opinion Low Buck Builds can produce more useable hp/torque gains per dollar than some of the higher $ efforts. All-in-all such builds are pretty fun in my book. Good luck, have a good time, and keep us updated!

captjim

I don't even think that's debatable. I could find some used flat tops, toss them in a solid block, bolt on milled BB cast heads, a big cam, and make 400 HP waaaaay cheaper than a quality build. The question becomes reliability and durability, that is where the extra money spent pays off.

coppercutlass

Jim I will agree with you but it also comes down to the person. For the novice spending some good coin on quality parts will scare em off. For me I know I'm still learning and in the past I didn't bat an eye . With my current 355 I'm not gonna lie it makes me nervous. I'm glad I found that cam issue with it because I got to see what was good and what went wrong . And when I put it back together I was even more tedious than before. The cam was a 500 + set back for me. Luckily it was out of the car. If you got let's 1500 into a nice little 13 sec engine and it fails chances are you can re coupe some of your investment and learn and build another one. For me I'm still learning and learned a lot putting my 355 back together. I feel more confident this time around but that 4k investment always makes me nervous to an extent.

captjim

That's fine, but you readily admit that you don't mind if something fails and you have to do it over again. Most guys, IMO, will get frustrated with that, which is why I often times suggest doing it correctly the firat time.

coppercutlass

Sometimes you gotta learn for me its about being self reliant. You hear so many stories of bad builds that don't make it past 500 miles that someone paid to do. Id rather it fail and learn and move on the experience is more valuable. That's the way I see it. I got a good friend of mine who is building a 347 stroker ford and he spend some really good coin on it for his first build. He went to assemble it and he installed the pistons wrong on the rods and it wouldn't turn over by hand. He calls me and I already knew what was wrong just by asking him what he did. Not saying I'm the greatest but I made that mistake once and caught it .

GEARMAN69

In defense of budget builds it nearly entirely depends on the competency of the builder. As long as the crank work is done and checked properly as well as big ends of rods, the block is cleaned right and clearances checked, flatness of heads and deck checked etc.. A re-ring of a old standard bore engine or used 030 etc can be great. Just because sometimes you can get away with an Easy Off oven cleaner treatment on the block at home to clean exterior grime and inside was ok and flush it out, hone cylinders with a straight bar hone and a drill. Check your ring gaps (stock iron rings that seat quick and easy) and ring groove side clearance and they are with in Chilton specs and your piston wall clearances are ok. Its mainy just down to if the bottom end quality of the build. I have done plenty of budget engines in years past that I hammered on and were daily drivers and they ran hard and lasted years and years with no issue. Matter of fact they were probably amongst the most fun and carefree engines sometimes. Nothing against perfect this perfect that and professional yada yada and must have all new parts since any used part will seem less than perfect to an overly **** builder critic but if you can do it clean and check everything most critical to check an use common sense too it can be done. I acknowledge my run on sentences too but oh well..haha carry one. Look forward to you getting track times soon Copper...

captjim

I agree. I have also worked in garages and machine shops, and in my personal experience have found that very rarely will a block with any kind of miles on it be within spec. Can you re-ring it and will it run? Sure Will you be optimizing the engine? No. So once again it simply comes down to budget and goals.

coppercutlass

I have gotten lucky and msot of the cores I get are low mileage . Usually I might be .001 bigger in the bore . I do measure everything .

76olds

My hats off to you copper!!! Perhaps in years to come you will be one of the top Olds engine builders you have a plus with your machining background as well. You've got lots of good years ahead of you to learn from your mistakes. Put-er ther. I hope your new build works out well for you. The future can hold whatever you let your mind take it to.
Cheers
Eric

coppercutlass

Thanks for the kind words but I'm not in it to be the best I just wanna be able to keep building my own stuff and it getting better. I love working on stuff . I'm doing this build to keep busy over the winter along with another trans build. I still have another 355 project that will be eventually built and it will get nothing but the best but that one can wait . In machining alone I would be spending what I'm spending on this build.

coppercutlass

Alright so back on topic here. Tonight I measured the rod and main journals and there is only .0005 wear on the #1 journal and .001 on the rest for the mains on the rod journals I'm at .0015 across the board . All it needs is a polish and its good to go. Now considering this is a re ring. What would you guys say is the safe margin for piston to wall clearance ? Factory high limit I belive is .002 . Where would be a safe range. I'm gonna borrow my friends bore gauge and 4 to 5 micrometer to measure the skirts I don't trust dial calipers as much as the mic. The mondello book says .004 max on cast pistons.

80 Rocket

There shouldn't be any "wear" per-se. If there is metal to metal contact, stuff is getting scuffed and coming apart. It sounds like you may have used a dial/digital caliper to measure the mains........that is not accurate enough, needs to be done with a micrometer.

Basically, when a crank visually looks good with no obvious imperfections, what you want to check for is taper and out of round conditions. You need to mic all over the crank journals and come up with the +/- of all of your findings, and that will let you know if you have a good piece to use or not.

Clearances also need to be measured with a bore gauge, there really is no other way. I know, I know, somebody you know used plastigage and his motor is still running, I used it too for my first build ever......but the bore gauge is the only way to do it right.

And for piston to wall clearance, realize that you are building junk. I would be fine with .006", probably more with cast factory pistons. When running with excessive clearance like that, be sure to definitely warm up the motor before trouncing on it. You might still break a skirt and ruin your engine, but that's the chance you are taking. Also, ring end gaps will be excessive with a bore that has a lot of ring wear, so you may have to go file fit on the rings........or a set of 4.060" rings might fit the bill (4.060" is a standard SBC size).

coppercutlass

I used a micrometer on the journals. By wear I should have meant I'm within factory limits between low and high range so its probably how the factory machined it. I did check it in various spots width wise and around the journal like 12 and 6 o'clock position etc etc. I assumed wear because its not at its low figure but on second thought the 2 numbers given in the book are the specs the factory machined them within that was my bad on my part but I am good on the numbers .I'm checking the bearing clearences with a bore gauge. Once I get new bearings and what not. I'm not too worried about stuff breaking just wanted a little input. I don't trust dial calipers at all which is why to measure the piston skirts I'm using a 4 to 5 mic which I'm borring from my friend and his bore gauge . I have an id. Mic but its had to use on the bore on the rod and main bores its no issue . There was nothing inside that indicated wear on the journal its self so its bad explnation on my part lol. The bearing surfaces where in great shape on the shells themselves both on the rods and mains no gouges or scratches . Also I gotta ask where is the main part I should measure the pistons as far as on the skirt . Top center and bottom I assume. I know due to the way the piston rides on the cylinder I will get diffrent readings on certain sections or that's the conclusion I came to.

coppercutlass

Ok so I got some numbers. I measure all the pistons and my lowest number was 4.0535 and highest was 4.0545 . So there is .001 in varience between all 8 pistons. I measured the bores on the block with the studs and straps and my lowest number was 4.057 and highest was 4.059 . Bore taper averaged between .0015 and .002 . So I'm in the ok range I guess. Since I wanted to get some rough figures I just measured the 8 pistons and 8 bores. My next step is to measure the pistons to the corresponding bores . I will also post up more detailed numbers per bore etc etc. But from the quick numbers I'm good to run this stuff. The block with the studs and straps was built once before and I belive honed to clean it up . Dunno if that would make my numbers vary as some cylinders may have needed a few more strokes with the hone but its not an untouched block. If you guys have any pointers let me know. Its not my first time measuring stuff but I can always learn a new trick or find out if I'm doing it wrong etc etc.

coppercutlass

Ok so I got all my numbers down and I measure in 2 spots on the bore. the 12 and 6 position and 3 & 9 . all by their bore and corresponding pistons I measure the top about an inch under the ridge , the middle and the bottom of the bore .


Bore #1 (3 & 9) Top = 4.058 mid= 4.058 Bot= 4.056
(12 & 6 ) T= 4.058 M= 4.0585 B= 4.0565
Piston skirt measured @ 4.0535


Bore #2 (12 & 6) T= 4.0575 M=4.0575 B= 4.056
(3 & 9) T=4.057 M=4.056 B=4.0555
piston skirt measured in @ 4.0535


Bore #3 (12 & 6) T= 4.058 M= 4.0585 B= 4.057
(3 & 9) T= 4.058 M= 4.057 B= 4.0565
Piston skirt measure in @ 4.054


Bore #4 (12 & 6) T= 4.058 M= 4.057 B = 4.056
(3 & 9) T= 4.057 M= 4.056 B = 4.056
piston skirt measured 4.054


bore #5 (12 & 6) T= 4.058 M= 4.057 B= 4.0565
(3 & 9) T= 4.0575 M= 4.0565 B 4.056
piston measured in @ 4.054


Bore #6 (12 & 6) T= 4.057 M= 4.057 B= 4.056
(3 & 9) T= 4.0565 M- 4.056 B= 4.056
piston measure in @ 4.055


Bore #7 (12 & 6) T= 4.0575 M= 4.0575 B= 4.056
(3 & 9) T= 4.0575 M= 4.0565 B= 4.056
Piston is in @ 4.0535


Bore #8 (12&6) T= 4.0575 M= 4.0575 B= 4.056
(3 & 9) T= 4.056 M=4.056 B= 4.056
piston is in @ 4.054




So that's not too shabby . I think I got a good little core to work with . For any novice looking on here with these figures you can see bore taper , bore eccentricity , and piston wall to skirt clearance. The 12 & 6 have more wear because that's the side the skirts are on so those numbers are bigger than the 3 & 9., that's where you see your bore eccentricity . The bottom of the bore has less wear as the piston rocks less at the bottom , the middle usually will show more wear as it will rock more at the center of travel and towards the top the piston will show a lower number than the middle for the most part as it has less side load as its straightening out the further it goes up . The vertical measurements are for bore taper ., Some of my bores where decently square some where more egg shaped which is common for an engine with wear., the only way to square em up is to bore them and by then usually you will need new pistons. For me in in the safe so I will just dingle ball hone it to clean the walls and establish a surface for the rings . The piston to wall clearance is simply the width of the skirt on the outside diameter on the bottom of it to the inside diameter of the bore. You take your piston width and see how much clearance is between the bore and the piston. On a newly bored engine it will be straight with no taper .

coppercutlass

Ok so today I picked up my cylinder heads . 75 bucks for a set of #4's not too bad. I might need new guides but at 75 bucks I got plenty of wiggle room. I did a ghetto cc'ing of the heads and I did the same chamber 3 times lowest number was 58 highest number was 60 . so my rough number is 59. I just wanted an idea of the cc's. these heads where take of a stone stock 330 . So with these heads and going on the big end of the piston being in the bore .035 im right at 9 to 1 compression but I have never seen a stock piston that far in the bore usually closer to .025 . I also paid for my intake today and that was 100 bucks for a performer ., so far im 245 into this project. I am going to properly have these heads cc'd im curious to find out how far off my poor man method is.

GEARMAN69

I like the CD/DVD idea.. I will do that myself soon. My "County" method is to buy a large Horse/AG 60 cc syringe and use the measurements of it to get my CC"s as it is marked well.

coppercutlass

I like the syringe idea . I'm gonna have to check the local farm and fleet .

80 Rocket

I have a professional cc burrette if you want to come up to WI sometime with your heads. Maybe we can meet at Dave's house and have a bench racing session.

captjim

Is that a CD? Not a bad idea, the problem is that you can't tell if there is any air trapped in there, that is why a clear piece of plastic is used and the hole to fill it is placed at the top. Which by the way, costs almost nothing to buy. No reason a syringe should not work, you will just have to refill it in most cases. 59 cc seems a bit low to me, but you never know.

coppercutlass

I got the idea from member J chicago. I gotta strip the label off the dvd . That's why I did it like 3 times . Some of the earlier heads I have been told are as low as 60 cc's . I'm gonna do it again with the label off. 80rocket dave is going to cc them once he gets them . You mentioned you had a bridge to measure how far the piston is in the bore. I'm used to doing it with a machinist straight edge which it 1/4 in thick and 3 ft long . I clamp it to the deck then I use a dial inidicator to make sure the piston is at the very top then I used feeler gauges to measure.

GEARMAN69

You do have to refill the syringe but its no biggie

80 Rocket

Yah, with my cc'ing kit.......its at his house. LOL!

coppercutlass

Lol. I might go up next weekend and have a few beers with dave and drop off the heads if I have them clean by then.

80 Rocket

This upcoming weekend? I will be at the PRI show in Indy from Thursday til Saturday.......Sunday I could stop out, though.

coppercutlass

I'm going Sunday to daves., Feb. there is the race and performance expo out by me. This year they have a swap meet and the same weekend there is the bopc swap meet.

coppercutlass

Ok so I put another dent in the parts collection. I got my intake manifold today. It gotta media blast it and chase some threads but for 100 shipped not a bad deal. I got an edelbrock performer. What's your guy's view on milling down the divider in the manifold ?

Mr Shifty Sidney

Hope the intake works good for you. Let me know if there are any issues with it.

Don W

coppercutlass

Thank you . Not a problem if there is an issue it will be bolt related on the carb pad but I can drill it and make it metric lol but the bolt holes for the holley flange are good. Im not too picky . For the price it is a very nice intake and it will be put back to work.

GEARMAN69

Fun to follow a budget build like this. In the spirit of Copper deals I scored a set of 16 NOS good ole Johnson-Sealed Power 30 year old new in box HT-951 lifters for 20 onEbay yesterday. Also got a used 4 speed 393859 Olds 286/286 .472 cam for 35 bucks that I may or may not use unless my 68 350 310 hp turns out to be re ringable or not.

coppercutlass

To be honest this is so far turning out to be a fun little build. Sadly the use of used parts stops here. But I did find a premium parts re ring kit on ebay for 135 , and premium cam bearing and freeze plug kit for 45. I have a low milage oil pump I have been saving , along with a good slightly used double roller timing chain . I'm planning on going with a howards 480/480 lift 213\223 duration cam on a 112 lsa . There is a few other things like rocker studs I'm gonna need since I do have a spare set of the roller tip rockers lying around along with guide plates . I might do the coretco .028 head gaskets to bump compression but I really can't detrmine any of that until I measure how far down the pistons are sitting in the cylinder and we cc the heads . I used the term premium parts for the ebay parts in lieu of using the name brands but they are not cheap parts lol just cheap price

coppercutlass

I dropped of the intake and the cylinder heads to get cleaned at my dad's work. I also picked up the trans case for the th350 im building. Im also building a trans in between this build for this build but it will also be used as a back up if my current trans poops out. So my intake should look like the trans when its done which it was chemically dipped and the heads will be a little darker more of the dark gray cast iron look I will post pics once I get them back. The trans build is nothing crazy , new clutches, cutting the pistons to hold 5 clutches in the direct and forward drums using a center support from a 700r4 and using a transgo 1 and 2 shift kit and plan on having a stock converter re worked/ rebuilt to 2400 rpm stall. all in all this trans will cost 350 appx. including the converter being rebuilt. cant really use much used stuff in a trans lol .

coppercutlass

well not much progress but the cylinder heads are being cleaned out they where very gunky and had a lot of residue in the coolant passages . I also blasted the intake manifold . Not much going on kind of in limbo at the moment.

Eddie Hansen

Nice build copper enjoying the thread, I truly admire folks who get all the measurements machining etc, stuff is like voodoo for me, its why I had my motor done , looking forward to your progress