Tony72Cutlass'S'

Hello All,

I'm seeking some advice on why my new out-of-the-box carb (Edelbrock 1405 Manual Choke 600 CFM). Doesn't seem to want to fire up my olds.

I crank and crank and all i get is a bit of a cough once in a while then usually a 2 foot flame burst out of the carb.. (and the people at edelbrock said this carb is "bolt on and go".. heh)

I have a stock 350 Olds block from 72 in my 72 Cutlass. HEI Distributor from '75. New fuel filter too.

Last i checked a few weeks back, i had my timing set to 12* BTDC, is that too much?
Condition of plugs, to check this evening and see if they need cleaning/gapping?

Anything anyone else can think of that i can diagnose?? Your help is much appreciated!!

Cheers,

Tony

f-85

First off what did you change since you ran it last? If just the carb only. make sure its seated good and tightened even. Check all the vacuum lines. Make sure nothing is unhooked. If all is good you might have flooded it when trying to start it. Try holding the gas wide open while cranking it. Do not pump the throtttle just hold it wide open. It might take 5-7 seconds for the gas to get pumpped out and it should fire.

Also the float might be stuck and its flooding the carb. Check to see if any gas is coming out the top of the carb when your cranking it. If so, wack the carb a few times with a rubber mallet it might free it up, or youll have to pull the top off the carb and see if the float is hanging up.

12* is fine. But what was it before you changed it? If it was way off with a timing light before you changed it your balancer might be spun. And you wont be able to get a real reading with a timing light until you get another balancer.

Good luck. Keep us posted.

superstingray77

I would start with the basic timing check by getting # 1 to TDC (use a compression tester bump it around until the needle just jumps up then let off the key quickly or rotated the crank around with a ratchet (KEY OFF) until the #1 is at TDC viewing through the spark plug hole, and rocker cover off make certain both valves are closed for that respective cylinder. Then line up the distributor rotor with the # wire position on the cap. This should get you close, from there its a matter of adjusting the distributor a bit in either direction until desired timing is achieved. (pay attention to the balancer mark as the F85 mentioned before me it may be way off) Regardless if its throwing fire back out of the carb its likely timing related or a valve stuck open. Why did you change carbs to begin with? Did it run fine with the old one before and after your last timing "adjustment"? Does the distributor have vac advance? where is it connected to in relation to before? if the car was timed for ported vaccum and you moved it to manifold it may be trying to advance the timing during cranking which will cause and over advance usually rewarded by fighting the starter. If its flooded you will see a ton of wet fuel all over the # 1 plug when you pull it out to check it, if its relatively dry then its timing.

defiant1

Did you have the distributor out before you put the new carb in? If 180* out the carb would show same symptom.

Tony72Cutlass'S'

Hey All, Thanks for all the feedback, i really appreciate the help.

Last time my car ran 3 weeks ago, my timing was set to 12* BTDC with my old carburetor, it would idle fine but off idle it was horrid ('78 Q-jet that was leaking fuel from every gasket even after getting it rebuilt.) So i went out and bought a 1405 Ebrock.

I will have to re-check the vacuum lines when i get home from work tonight. I notice that the carb has 2 vacuum advance ports, ported (which i would connect directly to the advance canister?) and full manifold (which i would connect to my distributor vacuum control switch). Which would you guys suggest??

What would be the conditions that would point to my balancer being spun? I purchased the car with the HEI distributor already installed 3 years ago. I changed the cap, rotor, plugs, wires, coil last year.


Also, this car is a manual choke (my first time with one), since it's summer, should i be giving much choke, or any at all?


Thanks all for the help!

-Tony

Tony72Cutlass'S'

Ah yes, and previously, my car was set up to control the distributor advance with the distributor vacuum control switch. Should i be switching it to ported vacuum, i also have a distributor re-curve kit in my trunk if that would also need to be changed?

64Rocket

Is the intake a Q-jet style or square bore style?
The 1405 is square bore carb, did you use the adapter for Q-jet to square?
did you hook up the manual choke? you still need a choke even in warm weather.
Is gas flowing in the carb? does it squirt when you pump it?
If you have no choke, you will have to pump it about 10 times if gas is in the carb.
Did you loosen the dist when you made the change?

Gene

Tony72Cutlass'S'

Hey Gene,

I purchased the proper adapter and 1'' riser to make my carburetor fit on the 3711 (stupid EGR) manifold. Perhaps maybe i didnt tighten the bolts enough on on the carb since there's a spacer plus the adapter?

I have a clear fuel filter that i also installed (in-line) and it appears that it's full with Gas. I'll check this evening and see if Fuel is squirting into the carb. Is it a similar mechanism as the q-jet? Because i remember that Q-jets have two jets that squirt right down the tube. F-85 suggested that my floats might also be stuck?

I did not touch the distributor when i made the change, only pulled all the spark plugs out for a good cleaning/gapping since the Q-jet made them black after idling for 60 seconds.

joe_padavano

And you're SURE you got the plug wires back in the right places?

As others have pointed out, check for a vacuum leak.

Rickman48

I've only dealt with that type of spacer once, and seem to remember it's quite easy to F.U. the gasket sequence and create a huge vacuum leak!
If there's directions or a picture, make sure it's on correctly, and tightened!

superstingray77

As far as timing goes if you didnt move it during the carb swap then it should still run as it is. Check wires like the others suggested that will cause EXACTLY this issue. Just run the vac advance disconnected to get it started. Depending on base idle setting and total advance curve of the distributor that will decide were to conenect it ported/manifold. Either way it should start and run without it then we can cross that bridge once running. Check the vac leaks like the others suggested as well.

Tony72Cutlass'S'

Hey all,

Hope you guys are doing well.

So i put my battery to charge last night and left it until i get home from work today.

Not sure if this would have attributed to hard starting, but my spark plugs were BLACK as night from my previous carb.. I cleaned them out last night, but what should i set my gap to? the CSM says 0.040'' for points, but i have a HEI from '75 installed on this car?

Also, i will check further for vacuum leaks this evening.

This is my first carb with a Manual Choke, can anyone offer me some startup instructions?? Do i need to pump the gas at all when i try to start it up? or just close the choke and crank away?

Thanks all! once again your feedback is much appreciated!

-Tony

Rickman48

Only FI will start w/o touching the gas - and touching the pedal is a must for setting the choke on carb'd cars!
If I were you, I'd be getting the electric choke conversion - all automatic once set-up correctly!
Manual chokes are a PIA - especially if you forget about it and the motor runs rich for a day!

Cold Starts; Hold the pedal down 1/8, pull choke cable entirely closed, and re-open 1/4 to 1/2 inch. Release pedal and turn key. After starting, you should be able to open the choke completely after 2-3 minutes.

Shouldn't be needed on warm starts, unless it's below freezing!

coppercutlass

Take the top horn off the carb I bought a brand new in the box 1405 it had one missing float! And one was split at the seam their carbs are bolt on and go I had one before perfect out the box but this new one on my new engine had issues if some thing is missing inside the carb will flood over not idle etc etc don't be affraid to take a new carburetor apart it sounds like something inside is missing and I never used the manual choke I take the flap and likage off on a bone stock 350 with the settings right should run with no choke my old combo did but every engine is diffrent

superstingray77

What temperature is it outside? At 75 degrees in the morning (I run a race 850 without a choke horn) I just press the pedal to the floor and back 2x and hit the key it should fire right up. I have a 284/292 duration .558 lift cam (rough idle) in a small block and it will idle after just a minute or two, the trick is just feathering the gas a little to pump fuel from the accelerator pump down the venturis until its warmed up enough to run on its own. I did the same on my Manual choke 650 Holley, just left the choke wide open never needed it here in Texas. I do have a nice running bolt and go Holley 670 CFM Street Avenger for sale on ebay. Im only asking 250 for it in the box. Has electric choke, ran great with my smaller cam and heads only has about 4500 miles on it.

Tony72Cutlass'S'

It's been hovering around 72 degrees the past week around here. I'll try what you said with pumping the pedal twice.

Right now my engine is a stock 72 build, the only "improvements" have been,

1) Swap to edelbrock 3711 manifold (done by previous owner)
2) Ebrock 1405 carb
3) HEI Ignition from '75 Cutlass supreme (new wires, plugs, coil, etc)


Thanks for the heads up on the holley, but i'm kind of exhausted my budget for the next couple pay cycles.. But perhaps in the future!



Right now i have my gap at .040'' do you think that's affecting my rough starting? I'm thinking of backing my timing back to to 8* BTDC?

Apart from that, i will try again tonight with a fully charged battery (currently on the 2A charger) and if that doesnt' work i'll take off the top horn.

Any ideas on what my settings should be for the idle speed screw and fast idle screw on the 1405?

Thanks all!

-Tony

f-85

Is the engine cranking hard. Like it barely wants to turn over?

Tony72Cutlass'S'

Yes! I left the car for about 3 weeks (i shoulda unplugged the battery) and the battery is on the charger now (drawing 6A as of last night)..

MDchanic

DO NOT mess with the timing if the car started fine before.
Keep the one setting that you KNOW worked the last time.

As for the carb, take a look inside and make sure it's all there.

Every car with a manual choke starts differently.
Take everyone's advice, but in the end, try everything until you find what works for your car.

- Eric

oldsguybry

since we are on the subject .... I always wondered why I have to pump the crap out of the gas pedal when trying to start......the car fires right up when I do that , if I dont pump the gas you will never get it started (only when cold mind you)....I replaced the fuel pump shortly after buying the car , figuring that this was the problem.....but then again , the carb gaskets are all shot , and who knows when the carb was rebuilt last.....I know this car was restored about 20years ago , so everything is in pretty good working order for a almost 40 year old car....I sure hope you resolve your carb problems soon , im sure your itching to drive the car.

Tony72Cutlass'S'

Definitely! I've been working on this car for 3 years now and with all your guys help I think im finally getting there, reason I bought it was it was my dads first car, 35 years later I found his 72 cutlass 's' sitting in a field rotting away, so I dragged it home and have been restoring it at a buddy's place, I plan to surprise him with it this year. Or this decade.. Hopefully :P

Eric, definitely, thanks for the feedback, I was just worried that 12* would be a tad too much (been reading mixed posts, I'm not quite sure where to start, but I will definitely take a look at the carb and get it started first Before I mess with timing.

- Tony

MDchanic

I wouldn't sweat the fine tuning at this point.
If it ran with 12° before, it should run now, even if it's not perfect.
Once you get it running, then you can go after the fine tuning, but no matter what people tell you to set it at ideally, the first thing is to just get it going.

- Eric

Tony72Cutlass'S'

Hey Guys,

I'm working on inspecting the carb for vacuum leaks, next i'm going to take the top off and see if the floats/needle/seats are in good shape.

Any ideas where i can hook up the Vapour Canister to on this carb? The old carb had a port for it. This carb (1405 ebrock) only has a large port at the front for PCV.

Is this vapour canister needed? Or should i be putting a T to the manifold or PCV system??

Cheers,

Tony

MDchanic

I'll get some flak for this, but just leave it disconnected.

All the vapor canister does is store the volatiles from the gas that evaporate, and then feed them to the motor when it's running, so that the unburned vapor doesn't float out and pollute the air around Los Angeles (I've never heard of fuel vapor bothering people anywhere else).
A properly functioning evaporative emission control system will not reduce your performance, but if you've got no easy way of hooking it up, it won't to any damage to leave it disconnected either.

- Eric

71 Cutlass

Remember to take out the metering rods and step up springs first, before taking off the top, so nothing gets bent. Maybe a dumb question, but did you put the BIG black plug in the back of the carb before installing... I know its obvious but have to ask...Finally, w/ top off, might as well measure proper float adjustments (both height off of top and drop). Also, assuming idle mixture screws were set, etc. Personally, I'd return it (still under warranty) and get a 1406 w/ an electric choke.

Tony72Cutlass'S'

I definitely put in the black plug in the back of the carb, i didnt have any teflon tape at the time but i found some in a plumbing kit i had in the basement. So i'm going to plug that up tonight.

I'll make sure the floats are good (i think the guy used a 7/16'' drill bit)..

What do you reccomend for the Idle mixture screws? When i got the carb. They were backed out exactly 1 turn from being lightly seated. Is that enough to run my 350 Rocket at idle??

Cheers and thanks for the feedback everyone,

-Tony

Oh, and i will be very happy to plug the hose that goes to my vapour canister, One less possibility for a vacuum leak!!

Rickman48

I just rebuilt a Holley on a '75 Lincoln Town Coupe, and since someone else took it off the car, had to plug ALL the vacuum lines to get it to run!
Runs good, plugged up - but since there's about 35 ft. of vacuum lines, need factory prints to figure it out!
Plug everything, get it running, and then nail-down the problem!

71 Cutlass

Tony,
One turn of the idle screws is probably not enough. Use either a vacuum gague or a tac and get the highest readings you can and set the idle screws there.

Oldsmaniac

My 2 cents. I think you should try and fill the carb some with fuel manually thru the top vent. Make sure you have good spark and it is consistant. Make sure your timing chain has not jumped. An improperly set up carb should still allow an engine to run even if its running poorly. A few pops and backfires thru the carb would make me look for another cause. I might even be tempted to try the engine with the old carb.

Tony72Cutlass'S'

Hey F-85,

I just realized something that you wrote early on in this thread. I threw on my charged battery last night, and i tried cranking my engine. What would continuously happen, is two streams of gas would shoot up vertically towards the hood.

After cranking the car for a couple seconds, it seems to "Almost Catch" and sputter and just died...

Thanks for all the help everyone! Has anyone ever had this happen with one of their carbs??

Cheers,

Tony

oldcutlass

Take the carb back to the auto parts store and get another 1. If you take it apart it will void your warranty.

MDchanic

So you're saying that when you crank the starter, gasoline sprays upwards and out of the top of the carb?

As oldcutlass said,
TAKE IT BACK!
Run, do not walk.

- Eric

Tony72Cutlass'S'

That's Exactly what happens, I crank for about 2-3 seconds and then PSST Gas shoots up like the Geysers at disney world. (and sometimes i even get an impressive ball of flame shooting up)

-Tony

RetroRanger

that sounds like a good time tony LOL!!!

I just put a 1405 on my 72 w HEI. I didnt use a spacer just the spread bore adapter.

The car fired up in about 10 seconds of cranking (empty bowls) now it fires right up in a ~1/2 second of cranking

I replaced a 1407 that was on the car when i bought it. the 1407 was mounted w no spread bore adapter justa 1" spacer and it had a hesitation off idle, So far in limited field testing the 1405 does run right well outta the box.

my idle mix screws are at ~1.5 turns out I have the HEI to ported vacuum (passenger side port) the manifold vacuum (drvrs side port) is not used in my application, the brake booster I have to manifold (on the stock manifold) vacuum and the port in the back of the carb is plugged.

starting procedure (manual choke) is 2 pumps and it starts right up although needs pedal assitance until its warm. Im going to get the e choke for it, but if I had a choke cable I would use the choke to avoid having to feather the pedal until it warms up. I wired the manual choke to stay open to prevent it from closing accidentally

my PVC line runs to the port on the bottom front center of the carb

I did read their paperwork that suggested some people incorrectly put their gas line there instead of the pass side of the carb, also they suggested like f85 said tapping the carb in case the floats are stuck

HTH

and (a shameless plug follows) check out my new avatar OK Im pumped

jag1886

You got a chunk of dirt or hose in the needle and set and it's stuck open, seen that happen a few times.

coppercutlass

i dont know if i posted this on this thread or not but i bought a brand new 1405 in the box it was missing a float and one was bent to hell had same problem put floats of another edelbrock carb that had seen better days and fired right up. also whats your fuel psi if its shooting like a guyser theres gotta be blockage somewhere or something missing

Tony72Cutlass'S'

Awesome! THanks for the reference on the idle mixture screws, mine are set around 2 turns out right now.. Just when you're cranking, do you hold the choke Completely closed? Or partly 1/4'' open or something?

Thanks for the feedback everyone! You guys are awesome, hopefully i'll have this fixed soon..

So what is the general Consensus? Should i....

a) Take off the top horn (see if something is stuck in the floats)

b) Don't bother looking at it and send the carb back to edelbrock (i bought the carb off amazon.com in the US) so i guess i'd have to ship it

Has anyone ever dealt with sending stuff back to edelbrock??

RetroRanger

I dont use the choke two pumps on the gas and it fires but needs gas to stay running til it warms up a bit (a minute or so)

If I did use the choke I would do this two pumps and set the choke to full (which I think is ~1/8" cracked open) start car, adjust choke in increments until car stays running by itself.

I got my carb used im going to get the E choke $50 and once its set-up its no more fiddling w it.

I would try tapping the carb a couple times after ensureing the carb was properly set-up, if that fails (and its new) I might be tempted to send it back, if I had another carb I could use, (if it meant 3 weeks down time i would likely take it apart)

You might try edlebrocks site I bet they have a FAQ or email or tech talk maybe you might get very specific advice from them !!!

edit :

http://www.edelbrock.com/automotive_...carb_faq.shtml

oldcutlass

This is the reason I tend to deal with local suppliers! Amazon is generally good about returns and exchanges! Please note that if you open it up you will void the warranty! So if the exchange route is where you are going, then call the vendor you bought it from and follow their proceedures!

Tony72Cutlass'S'

OH man! really?? I bought it off amazon.com because in canada, the same carb costs 550 dollars off the shelp (275 from amazon in the US).

That's really odd, because i called the tech line a week ago, they told me to take the top horn off and check to see if the float is bad. I havn't touched it yet being scared about the warrenty thing..