Starter issues
July 27th, 2020, 01:22 PM
#1
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Starter issues
Hi, I have some starter issues with my 371 -60 that drives me crazy! The engine cranks real slow for about two seconds, you can really hear it struggle, then it stops. If you crank it again it repeats the process. Its like the battery is finished, the fun part is I bought a new battery but it didnt fix the problem.
I also have:
Replaced the ground to a twice as thick cable
Bypassed the ignition and run the starter directly on the new battery
Replaced the positive cable, both from the battery down to the starter, twice as thick
Replaced the starter to one I know is working, from my other olds 60
Put starting clamps on the starter positive directly on to the battery
So I think theres nothing wrong with the electricity, this got to be a mechanical issue, but what? I can turn the engine by hand pretty easily.. And from what I’ve read, you dont need to shim the starter?
Could someone please give me some ideas, because I just ran out of them!
I also have:
Replaced the ground to a twice as thick cable
Bypassed the ignition and run the starter directly on the new battery
Replaced the positive cable, both from the battery down to the starter, twice as thick
Replaced the starter to one I know is working, from my other olds 60
Put starting clamps on the starter positive directly on to the battery
So I think theres nothing wrong with the electricity, this got to be a mechanical issue, but what? I can turn the engine by hand pretty easily.. And from what I’ve read, you dont need to shim the starter?
Could someone please give me some ideas, because I just ran out of them!
July 27th, 2020, 02:20 PM
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I dont think its the battery, I have tried another 4 batteries from cars I know start, I have even put jumping cables from a running car, but same problem.
I also have cleaned the engine block where the negative cable goes to bare metal.
I also have cleaned the engine block where the negative cable goes to bare metal.
July 27th, 2020, 02:31 PM
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I think the only thing I haven't tried is to put clamps on the starter body to the battery negative terminal, but that seems pretty far-fetched.
July 27th, 2020, 03:06 PM
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Specifically, what ground did you replace? I think it sounds like a ground issue. If the only ground you replaced was the battery ground, that isn't necessarily any indication you have a solid ground at the starter interface. Is there a ground strap on a 371 -60 starter or a similar ground from the starter? The starter itself requires a solid ground - forget about the battery cable ground if you created a new battery cable ground wire. It does sound like a starter ground issue though, IMO. I'd check starter interface and grounding of the starter.
July 27th, 2020, 03:13 PM
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July 27th, 2020, 03:17 PM
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I know, and it really bothers me
I replaced the battery negative to engine block wire and sand the ground spot down to bare metal.
There isnt a ground strap, the starter grounds it self to the engine block. Metal to metal.
What do you mean by interface? Do you think I need shims?
Specifically, what ground did you replace? I think it sounds like a ground issue. If the only ground you replaced was the battery ground, that isn't necessarily any indication you have a solid ground at the starter interface. Is there a ground strap on a 371 -60 starter or a similar ground from the starter? The starter itself requires a solid ground - forget about the battery cable ground if you created a new battery cable ground wire. It does sound like a starter ground issue though, IMO. I'd check starter interface and grounding of the starter.
There isnt a ground strap, the starter grounds it self to the engine block. Metal to metal.
What do you mean by interface? Do you think I need shims?
July 27th, 2020, 03:23 PM
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I understand the starter gets its ground from the engine block - metal-to-metal. By interface, I simply mean "any" GROUND interface, whether that be metal-to-metal or ground strap or otherwise. No, I don't believe it needs shims. I'm still hedging it's the ground. You're losing ground potential somewhere at the ground interface of the starter and/or somewhere between the block ground and the starter. IOW, you have a solid ground to the block, think of ANY other areas where you have ground straps on the engine - clean them ALL. I'm still leaning on a bad ground. You can easily prove this and you already stated how. Ground clamp it from the battery (-) terminal. Then let's see if it fires right off.
July 27th, 2020, 03:26 PM
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I understand the starter gets its ground from the engine block - metal-to-metal. By interface, I simply mean "any" GROUND interface, whether that be metal-to-metal or ground strap or otherwise. No, I don't believe it needs shims. I'm still hedging it's the ground. You're losing ground potential somewhere at the ground interface of the starter and/or somewhere between the block ground and the starter. IOW, you have a solid ground to the block, think of ANY other areas where you have ground straps on the engine - clean them ALL. I'm still leaning on a bad ground. You can easily prove this and you already stated how. Ground clamp it from the battery (-) terminal. Then let's see if it fires right off.
July 27th, 2020, 03:57 PM
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July 27th, 2020, 04:22 PM
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July 27th, 2020, 04:28 PM
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12.6V no load, yes. But, if you hit 11.6V immediately when trying to start by hitting the ignition, you're discharging 80% of your load immediately. Which, in my own experience 11.6V isn't going to start a V8 engine. Eric's awfully good with this, I'm sure he'll establish some wisdom here. Either that battery is shot, or you have a serious drawn down occurring 'somewhere'. And, it 'generally' still resides on the ground side has always been my opinion.
July 27th, 2020, 04:31 PM
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I know this sounds silly perhaps, but - does your horn work? And, if it does, when you hold down on the horn, does it remain a nice loud solid sound or does it sound like a wimpy floppy noodle or a trumpet on its death bed?
Do you have 'any' other issues with any electrical devices on your car?
Do you have 'any' other issues with any electrical devices on your car?
July 27th, 2020, 04:41 PM
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12.6V no load, yes. But, if you hit 11.6V immediately when trying to start by hitting the ignition, you're discharging 80% of your load immediately. Which, in my own experience 11.6V isn't going to start a V8 engine. Eric's awfully good with this, I'm sure he'll establish some wisdom here. Either that battery is shot, or you have a serious drawn down occurring 'somewhere'. And, it 'generally' still resides on the ground side has always been my opinion.
Funny thing though, I saw a small string of smoke and smelt burnt isolation from the battery to engine block ground. And that cable is 50mm2. I have sanded both the block and the terminal so it got a good connection.
I know this sounds silly perhaps, but - does your horn work? And, if it does, when you hold down on the horn, does it remain a nice loud solid sound or does it sound like a wimpy floppy noodle or a trumpet on its death bed?
Do you have 'any' other issues with any electrical devices on your car?
Do you have 'any' other issues with any electrical devices on your car?
No other issues.
July 27th, 2020, 04:54 PM
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You have a SERIOUS ground issue SOMEWHERE. If that new battery ground cable you just installed produced smoke and the smell of burnt insulation, your resistance in the ground system has increased ENORMOUSLY. You need to find out where in the ground path you are losing ground potential.
EDIT: Well, it hasn't necessarily increased perhaps, it's been there awhile and you need to find it. Until you do, you're dead in the water.
EDIT: Well, it hasn't necessarily increased perhaps, it's been there awhile and you need to find it. Until you do, you're dead in the water.
July 27th, 2020, 05:03 PM
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You have a SERIOUS ground issue SOMEWHERE. If that new battery ground cable you just installed produced smoke and the smell of burnt insulation, your resistance in the ground system has increased ENORMOUSLY. You need to find out where in the ground path you are losing ground potential.
EDIT: Well, it hasn't necessarily increased perhaps, it's been there awhile and you need to find it. Until you do, you're dead in the water.
EDIT: Well, it hasn't necessarily increased perhaps, it's been there awhile and you need to find it. Until you do, you're dead in the water.
Any ideas of what the fault could be?
I really appreciate you taking time!
July 27th, 2020, 05:04 PM
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I don't know, I'm hedging here - a guess. Did you mess around with the alternator? You don't need the alternator hooked up to start the car. You can quickly remove the ground strap from the alternator and give it a try in case the ground on the alternator is faulting out perhaps. Just a quick complete guess here but possibly worth a quick try. And, you have no horn and you're bypassing the ignition. Make sure your ground wire to the junction block (where your horn would normally be connected and your ignition) is still solidly connected and NOT laying about somewhere. I don't know, just tossing out suggestions.
Last edited by Vintage Chief; July 27th, 2020 at 05:08 PM.
July 27th, 2020, 05:14 PM
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I don't know, I'm hedging here - a guess. Did you mess around with the alternator? You don't need the alternator hooked up to start the car. You can quickly remove the ground strap from the alternator and give it a try in case the ground on the alternator is faulting out perhaps. Just a quick complete guess here but possibly worth a quick try. And, you have no horn and you're bypassing the ignition. Make sure your ground wire to the junction block (where your horn would normally be connected and your ignition) is still solidly connected and laying about somewhere. I don't know, just tossing out suggestions.
I’ll check that too. I think thats where the battery positive wire connects with the starter positive wire?
July 27th, 2020, 05:21 PM
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I don't know about your car. So, I can't say how the alternator is grounded I thought there was an additional ground strap from the block to the alternator bracket? At least I thought there was supposed to be. Regarding disconnecting any positive wire to take a system out of the loop or break the circuit. No, that isn't going to do any good. The issue resides on the ground side so you need to identify where your ground issue is located. You can remove as many (+) wires as you like, your issue is on the (-) ground side. You have far too much ground resistance.
July 27th, 2020, 05:39 PM
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I wish I could help you more. Just brainstorming here, but there should also be a ground strap off the negative (-) battery terminal which connects to the frame/chassis of the car to achieve ground. That needs to be connected I suspect, although I'm not completely certain it would be required for starting the car, but you should have a ground to the frame/chassis and it comes off the (-) battery terminal. Additionally, I can't recall exactly the connection of the external voltage regulator ground path but that needs to be established and perhaps a faulty ground path somewhere in that circuit? Additionally, don't forget that junction block has a ground wire which attaches to it. I don't know how you are bypassing the ignition system, and what the effects of that ground wire to the junction block has on overall engine grounding if you have it disconnected just ensure it isn't laying about on some place it shouldn't be and/or is attached. You KNOW you have an electrical issue if your battery to engine block cable is smoking and insulation burning.
Last edited by Vintage Chief; July 27th, 2020 at 05:42 PM.
July 27th, 2020, 05:42 PM
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I don't know about your car. So, I can't say how the alternator is grounded I thought there was an additional ground strap from the block to the alternator bracket? At least I thought there was supposed to be. Regarding disconnecting any positive wire to take a system out of the loop or break the circuit. No, that isn't going to do any good. The issue resides on the ground side so you need to identify where your ground issue is located. You can remove as many (+) wires as you like, your issue is on the (-) ground side. You have far too much ground resistance.
July 27th, 2020, 05:45 PM
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Tell you what, Eric is really good at troubleshooting electrical. I know he'll follow up on reading this and he'll provide better feedback when he more clearly sees what's occurring with the battery cable smoking and insulation smell. Good Luck!
July 27th, 2020, 05:47 PM
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I wish I could help you more. Just brainstorming here, but there should also be a ground strap off the negative (-) battery terminal which connects to the frame/chassis of the car to achieve ground. That needs to be connected I suspect, although I'm not completely certain it would be required for starting the car, but you should have a ground to the frame/chassis and it comes off the (-) battery terminal. Additionally, I can't recall exactly the connection of the external voltage regulator ground path but that needs to be established and perhaps a faulty ground path somewhere in that circuit? Additionally, don't forget that junction block has a ground wire which attaches to it. I don't know how you are bypassing the ignition system, and what the effects of that ground wire to the junction block has on overall engine grounding if you have it disconnected just ensure it isn't laying about on some place it shouldn't be and/or is attached. You KNOW you have an electrical issue if your battery to engine block cable is smoking and insulation burning.
I just use a wire from the starter solenoid up to the junction block, and press it against where the two positive wires meet.
Again, thank you for taking time. Much appreciated.
July 27th, 2020, 06:30 PM
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Just a quick thought; on the my other olds theres an old direct current alternator, in this they have replaced it with an adaptive current alternator. Would that affect the starter in any way? Like if its built to work with a specific type of battery or something?
July 27th, 2020, 06:42 PM
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I don't know exactly. I do know there are some deltas through the years w/ electrical generating supply sources. When you say an "adaptive current alternator" I am not certain what that means - are you referring to an AC (Alternating Current) alternator?
At any rate, I believe most early production automobiles had, in fact generators and not alternators; and, in many articles you might often find folks referring to an alternator when in fact, it wasn't an alternator to begin with it was actually a generator. The field of a generator is quite different than the field of an alternator and over the years alternators have changed. So, I'm not clear if your car came with a generator (in fact) or an alternator. Then there's the evolution of alternators - nearly all the early models had external voltage regulators and the voltage regulators moved from an external VR to an internal VR. There are other changes as well. I am not knowledgeable enough to answer your question directly.
At any rate, I believe most early production automobiles had, in fact generators and not alternators; and, in many articles you might often find folks referring to an alternator when in fact, it wasn't an alternator to begin with it was actually a generator. The field of a generator is quite different than the field of an alternator and over the years alternators have changed. So, I'm not clear if your car came with a generator (in fact) or an alternator. Then there's the evolution of alternators - nearly all the early models had external voltage regulators and the voltage regulators moved from an external VR to an internal VR. There are other changes as well. I am not knowledgeable enough to answer your question directly.
July 27th, 2020, 06:43 PM
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The alternator is not the issue here, you have an extremely high voltage drop when cranking, should be about .5v. Either a bad cable or poor connection in either the positive or negative cable, bad starter, or bad battery. You've bypassed most if not all the car electrical when you tried starting the car with the jumper. I don't really have anything else to suggest.
July 28th, 2020, 09:41 AM
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So...
I put the old battery charging over night, and the voltage was 12,8v unloaded fully charges. I cranked the engine and it turn over really good! I measured the volts when cranking and it read 10,5v. Although, I got a good spin on the engine and the car fired up real easily.
This **** is strange...
I put the old battery charging over night, and the voltage was 12,8v unloaded fully charges. I cranked the engine and it turn over really good! I measured the volts when cranking and it read 10,5v. Although, I got a good spin on the engine and the car fired up real easily.
This **** is strange...
July 28th, 2020, 10:46 AM
#37
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So...
I put the old battery charging over night, and the voltage was 12,8v unloaded fully charges. I cranked the engine and it turn over really good! I measured the volts when cranking and it read 10,5v. Although, I got a good spin on the engine and the car fired up real easily.
This **** is strange...
I put the old battery charging over night, and the voltage was 12,8v unloaded fully charges. I cranked the engine and it turn over really good! I measured the volts when cranking and it read 10,5v. Although, I got a good spin on the engine and the car fired up real easily.
This **** is strange...
July 28th, 2020, 10:54 AM
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You stated you have smoke coming from the negative cable you installed and the smell of insulation. You have a SERIOUS electrical issue SOMEWHERE. There is absolutely no question about this.
A draw down from 12.6V to 10.5V is indicative of a completely discharged battery. You have a SERIOUS electrical issue whether that car started or it did not. A brand new completely fully charged battery will actually read ~13.5V while hooked up to a battery charger. The delta between 12.6V and 13.5V is the result of surface charge on the battery during charging. It would take a minimum of ~30 minutes for a fully charged battery to dissipate the surface charge and render a good battery 12.6V.
EDIT: Looks like Eric just beat me to it regarding surface charge and dissipation of the surface charge. But again, you have a SERIOUS electrical issue SOMEWHERE. Battery cables DO NOT smoke and insulation does not burn.
A draw down from 12.6V to 10.5V is indicative of a completely discharged battery. You have a SERIOUS electrical issue whether that car started or it did not. A brand new completely fully charged battery will actually read ~13.5V while hooked up to a battery charger. The delta between 12.6V and 13.5V is the result of surface charge on the battery during charging. It would take a minimum of ~30 minutes for a fully charged battery to dissipate the surface charge and render a good battery 12.6V.
EDIT: Looks like Eric just beat me to it regarding surface charge and dissipation of the surface charge. But again, you have a SERIOUS electrical issue SOMEWHERE. Battery cables DO NOT smoke and insulation does not burn.
July 28th, 2020, 11:11 AM
#39
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You stated you have smoke coming from the negative cable you installed and the smell of insulation. You have a SERIOUS electrical issue SOMEWHERE. There is absolutely no question about this.
A draw down from 12.6V to 10.5V is indicative of a completely discharged battery. You have a SERIOUS electrical issue whether that car started or it did not. A brand new completely fully charged battery will actually read ~13.5V while hooked up to a battery charger. The delta between 12.6V and 13.5V is the result of surface charge on the battery during charging. It would take a minimum of ~30 minutes for a fully charged battery to dissipate the surface charge and render a good battery 12.6V.
EDIT: Looks like Eric just beat me to it regarding surface charge and dissipation of the surface charge. But again, you have a SERIOUS electrical issue SOMEWHERE. Battery cables DO NOT smoke and insulation does not burn.
A draw down from 12.6V to 10.5V is indicative of a completely discharged battery. You have a SERIOUS electrical issue whether that car started or it did not. A brand new completely fully charged battery will actually read ~13.5V while hooked up to a battery charger. The delta between 12.6V and 13.5V is the result of surface charge on the battery during charging. It would take a minimum of ~30 minutes for a fully charged battery to dissipate the surface charge and render a good battery 12.6V.
EDIT: Looks like Eric just beat me to it regarding surface charge and dissipation of the surface charge. But again, you have a SERIOUS electrical issue SOMEWHERE. Battery cables DO NOT smoke and insulation does not burn.
July 28th, 2020, 11:27 AM
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I am not familiar with the older cars, and I may have missed this in the thread: If there is supposed to be one, did you replace the ground strap between the block and firewall/body?
