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Water pump out, sounded good, moved freely. Not thinking I need to replace it.
Radiator is out, had some rusty water coming out towards the end, probably about 10 years old, not the original rad. A bit smaller than original. Aluminum this one is.
I dump water in the intake water outlet neck, without the therm. of course. I opened both block drain plugs BUT, the driver side, right side plug never let any water flow out. This sounds like an issue.
The left side flowed right out when opened and the right side, a few drips. Also, taking the bolts out of the water pump to block, two longer ones smelled burnt, covered in grime and oil but smelled burnt.
Could that right side block have a blockage somewhere. Could this be the overheating culprit that causes slow flowing coolant and upon higher rpms, cools the vehicle down?
Any input on this guys, would be great. Thanks for all the help.
The reason that you get nothing out of the right side block drain is because it is totally clogged.
Remove the plug and probe up in there with thick wire (like a coat hanger) .
Get ready for a deluge of rusty water and crap when you finally break it loose.
It sounds like you probably have a block filled with debris.
If you can't successfully clean the block out through the drains, then you may have to resort to removing the "freeze plugs" to clean it.
The reason that you get nothing out of the right side block drain is because it is totally clogged.
Remove the plug and probe up in there with thick wire (like a coat hanger) .
Get ready for a deluge of rusty water and crap when you finally break it loose.
It sounds like you probably have a block filled with debris.
If you can't successfully clean the block out through the drains, then you may have to resort to removing the "freeze plugs" to clean it.
So I was able to stick a small screwdriver in through the petcock; it did allow full flow out. Both sides now flow. I am in the process of flushing everything over and over and over. I will flush the HELL out of the rad as well, as it is out of the vehicle.
Consider making an adapter to reverse flush into the block drain plugs AFTER you get everything you can out through flushing downward.
Follow Charlie's advice by probing around in there with a hanger to break things loose.
The particles look like mineral deposits from hard water???, perhaps Vintage Chief our resident chemist can offer an opinion on it or some advice.
You have just made a significant find, stick with it.
The burnt smelling sludgy bolts seem normal, be glad they didn't break!
This is critical when flushing, AVOID THERMAL SHOCK don't put cold water in a hot block.
Good luck!!!
I am going to do just that! I’ll unthread the drain plugs from both sides, and come up with an adapter so I can run water into both sides of the block. Someone told me exactly that earlier. Great great idea.
Try to make the device so the direction of the water flow can be aimed toward the side vs. straight in and so that the direction can be varied from a 9 o'clock to 3 o'clock position. Perhaps a copper tube with an angled end through a fitting into the block ...you'll figure it out.
Take a look at RV water heater tank flushing wands.
I have rebuilt a few engines for the 61-64 394's and a few newer engines (455,403,350 all Olds) and one thing in common is that after sitting for a few years they build up sludge around the 5-7 and 6-8 cooling system. I pull the frost plugs out and flush the block removing all the scale and rust buildup. The 403 I rebuilt for a 79 TA with very low original milage on it was so bad that when I undid the **** drains on the block nothing came out. This car was a garage queen and you couldn't drive it around the block without overheating. When I rebuilt the engine we added a few things to get more power and also went with a 2 core high flow rad using the same end caps.
Pull the starter and remove the frost plugs and clean the block with a scraper and garden hose, replace plugs and while doing this get the rad boiled out at a rad shop and also do the heater core or it will become the weak link in the puzzle dumping coolant on your carpet.
Just a few things I would do here.
Steve
Ok guys. So, here are some pics I wanted to post. Looks like a few of the areas of the intake seem to be running way hotter than everything else on the intake. Check the pics out and look at the discoloration of either side of the engine on the intake. Between 3 and 5 and 2 and 4 and 6. Temp goes up substantially from the front cylinders to those. 2,4 are about 215 degrees same on the other side. Any input here?
Ok guys. So, here are some pics I wanted to post. Looks like a few of the areas of the intake seem to be running way hotter than everything else on the intake. Check the pics out and look at the discoloration of either side of the engine on the intake. Between 3 and 5 and 2 and 4 and 6. Temp goes up substantially from the front cylinders to those. 2,4 are about 215 degrees same on the other side. Any input here?
Yes, the heat riser valve is blocked.
Remove and inspect it. If necessary, replace.
Heat riser is open; stuck open, but not closed anymore. It was so hard to move. Had to hammer it with a wooden rod.
I have not hit the tune up yet. I need to get a timing light yet.
So guys, heat riser valve was able to move even more and I think it’s damn near wide open. Did not run nearly as warm as
it did before at idle! I believe this has helped alone with the flush and refill I did.
going to keep testing her out in slow conditions.
Should my temp gauge needle
stay put in one area? It does move once warmed up and cools down of course when cruising. Modern cars seem to have a gauge that when it warms up, it stays right put? Why would mine fluctuate after warming up? Always wondered that.
The needle moving is normal. Newer cars have drastically better control of the temps through control of electric fans and they aren't clogged up yet.
Glad to hear you are making progress. Remember what Oldskeeper Steve has mentioned about clogged spots, his experience is specific to the 394. If it continues to run cool great, if not the frost plug by the starter may have to come out.
The needle moving is normal. Newer cars have drastically better control of the temps through control of electric fans and they aren't clogged up yet.
Glad to hear you are making progress. Remember what Oldskeeper Steve has mentioned about clogged spots, his experience is specific to the 394. If it continues to run cool great, if not the frost plug by the starter may have to come out.
Did you reverse flush at the drain plugs?
Good luck!!!
I did reverse flush and it seemed to clear up those pieces of debris that accumulate in the top of the rad. Plus, the right side flowed out just as well as the unclogged left. I think that all helped.
I will continue to monitor and may have to remove those freeze plugs. Again, it was sitting for 19 years with all old coolant in it 🤦🏻
Have you gone over your tune up settings? Fixed the heat riser?
Eric, was wondering about the proper way to set the ignition timing. In my Olds manual it says to use a timing light and to adjust the distributor cap as needed to set it to 7.5 degrees BTDC.
It doesn't really go into much detail on how to set the light, use it, etc. Can you shed some light on this area for me. Never set the ignition timing before and it should be set properly after all these years.
Thank you Eric as well as everybody else here helping this newbie out.
Many of us here can work out the steps to set ignition timing but setting is believing. It’s my suggestion you Google search “set timing on Oldsmobile V8” That will give you the visuals to help make sense out of the written instruction you’ll get here.
FYI. Before ignition timing can be set the ignition point swell must be set with a dwell meter first. Once again google is your friend.
Both procedures are not that difficult so don’t be put off. To do these procedures you will need a timing light and a Dwell meter
Many of us here can work out the steps to set ignition timing but setting is believing. It’s my suggestion you Google search “set timing on Oldsmobile V8” That will give you the visuals to help make sense out of the written instruction you’ll get here.
FYI. Before ignition timing can be set the ignition point swell must be set with a dwell meter first. Once again google is your friend.
Both procedures are not that difficult so don’t be put off. To do these procedures you will need a timing light and a Dwell meter
Any recommendations on both the timing light and dwell meter brand? I am watching youtube videos on how all this works right now, but, if there any suggestions on reliable brands, I am all ears.
Based upon what you've done so far setting dwell and timing is well within your capability by studying and learning the procedure.
As stated the point gap MUST be set first and then the ignition timing. Brands? Older Craftsman, CalVan, Snap-On, Matco.
The complete distributor is rotated to adjust the ignition timing, not the position of the cap on the distributor. Don't lose sight of that you are working with high voltage from the spark plug and coil wires. DO NOT grab the distributor cap from the top with your hands over the wires to turn the distributor, if you do there is a good chance of getting a shock you won't forget. Do not touch the coil or plug wires with the car running.
Both procedures are simple, don't overthink them it will spin the cerebral matter. You'll gain an understanding as you perform each step. When you have questions ask us on this site, if you are making a procedural error members will call it out and inform of the correct method.
Make marks, take pictures and keep notes if needed of your initial starting points in case things get far off the mark.
Also don't completely loosen the distributor hold down bolt. You want to loosen it just a little bit so you can turn the distributor with a bit of resistance. Otherwise you could turn the distributor so far that the car stalls and wont start. In fact take a picture of the distributor first, with something like the vacuum advance pointing to a reference point, just to be sure. That way if you mess it up, you can look at the photo and reproduce the position approximately by having the vacuum advance point to the same reference point.
Any recommendations on both the timing light and dwell meter brand? I am watching youtube videos on how all this works right now, but, if there any suggestions on reliable brands, I am all ears.
You need to find an "ol guy" with an Olds to see how its done. The Minnesota Olds Club has a few members that live out in the Eden Prairie area that could give you pointers or show how its done. He may even teach you to do it. You're making this more difficult than it needs to be.
You also need to mark (with a scribe mark, sharpie, or paint stripe) where the distributor is in the intake manifold is currently. If it stalls, move it back to the mark and start the car and try it again.
Also should also paint the harmonic balancer area black and tape off the timing line white. This makes the mark easier to see.
Be sure to set the point dwell before adjusting timing.
.....Just my two cents worth.
Any recommendations on both the timing light and dwell meter brand? I am watching youtube videos on how all this works right now, but, if there any suggestions on reliable brands, I am all ears.
E-Bay is your friend here, plenty of good barely used units out there.
Thank you all for the input and suggestions. I have both a dwell meter and timing light gun on order. Been watching videos on dwell and timing. I will get my dwell adjusted according to my Olds manual, I think 30° it says, I’ll reread. After that’s set I’ll get into the timing with my light. Hope it helps.
As always, will keep you all posted after this weekend.
So, with the dwell set and the timing set, not much difference with the running hot. Still the same; as I drive, even in warm humid weather now, it will cool down. Soon as I come to slower traffic or stop lights, she starts climbing quickly. Even as she climbs up as I use, I can put it in N and rev it up to get the temp needle moving down. I would say at idle, in drive, it could be around 230°. Was hoping the timing would help.
Kind of at a loss still guys. All else being checked out and gone over, not sure what more to add / do to make it run cooler in idle or crawling traffic. I just don’t like seeing it around the 228 - 230 temp.
Sorry for the long thread, just seeing about any last thoughts. Thanks so much guys.
Note that the gas we get today is a bit different from what they refined in the 1960’s. For one thing unleaded vs. leaded. For another generally lower octane. For another alcohol content. Some people turn the timing back to deal with the lower quality gas and I believe that can cause the car to run hotter. I’m guessing from above your first best move is set the timing to stock and go from there. I use an Innova dial-back timing light and it works very well.
I don’t know if this will help, but later (1966’s anyway) big Oldsmobiles had rubber front curtains that blocked air from going around the radiator and acted like a “front shroud”. Check your Chassis Service Manual as to whether they used them in your year. This many decades later they’ll either be there and stiff as a board, or completely gone.
Fusick sells the masticated rubber material by the roll and you can cut your own curtains to force air through the core. Basically you can fabricate two side curtains and a bottom that fills the gap between radiator and the front bumper in an afternoon.
One other note on the 50/50 antifreeze water mixture. That is the standard ratio of water to glycol stuff. Here in CA we never see freezing temperatures, so I don’t need the anti-freeze component like you may in MN (where I hear you have real winter…). If you want to run an experiment that worked for me in our warmer months, my recommended mixture is 70% distilled water (not tap), 30% of your favorite antifreeze by volume with a bottle or 2 of water wetter. The antifreeze also contains chemicals to lubricate your water pump and inhibit scaling. This mix helped drop my engine temps by 10-15 degrees, but it will probably freeze in your winters, so you’d need to not use the car or swap it out in Fall.
One guy’s experience. Perhaps this can help you. Happy to stand corrected on my gasoline difference assertions. I’m no chemical engineer.
Ask member GMKarGuy. for fan and radiator pics particularly the shrouding from his time capsule '61 88 it may offer some help.
Your radiator is still undersized from original correct. If yes that isn't helping the situation.
Remember what Steve said about the block getting plugged. Can you detect a noteworthy temp difference between the spark plugs which could indicate less cooling on that cylinder?
Don't exceed 50/50 coolant to water ratio and you may want to try Redline Water Wetter, I've used it on other cars and it helps.
Note that the gas we get today is a bit different from what they refined in the 1960’s. For one thing unleaded vs. leaded. For another generally lower octane. For another alcohol content. Some people turn the timing back to deal with the lower quality gas and I believe that can cause the car to run hotter. I’m guessing from above your first best move is set the timing to stock and go from there. I use an Innova dial-back timing light and it works very well.
I don’t know if this will help, but later (1966’s anyway) big Oldsmobiles had rubber front curtains that blocked air from going around the radiator and acted like a “front shroud”. Check your Chassis Service Manual as to whether they used them in your year. This many decades later they’ll either be there and stiff as a board, or completely gone.
Fusick sells the masticated rubber material by the roll and you can cut your own curtains to force air through the core. Basically you can fabricate two side curtains and a bottom that fills the gap between radiator and the front bumper in an afternoon.
One other note on the 50/50 antifreeze water mixture. That is the standard ratio of water to glycol stuff. Here in CA we never see freezing temperatures, so I don’t need the anti-freeze component like you may in MN (where I hear you have real winter…). If you want to run an experiment that worked for me in our warmer months, my recommended mixture is 70% distilled water (not tap), 30% of your favorite antifreeze by volume with a bottle or 2 of water wetter. The antifreeze also contains chemicals to lubricate your water pump and inhibit scaling. This mix helped drop my engine temps by 10-15 degrees, but it will probably freeze in your winters, so you’d need to not use the car or swap it out in Fall.
One guy’s experience. Perhaps this can help you. Happy to stand corrected on my gasoline difference assertions. I’m no chemical engineer.
Good luck with the cool down project.
Chris
Chris thank you for those tips. Ordered a bottle of wetter. Will try the different ratio as well. I also have the same brand timing light and dwell meter, it arrived yesterday and I was impressed with it.
Ask member GMKarGuy. for fan and radiator pics particularly the shrouding from his time capsule '61 88 it may offer some help.
Your radiator is still undersized from original correct. If yes that isn't helping the situation.
Remember what Steve said about the block getting plugged. Can you detect a noteworthy temp difference between the spark plugs which could indicate less cooling on that cylinder?
Don't exceed 50/50 coolant to water ratio and you may want to try Redline Water Wetter, I've used it on other cars and it helps.
Good luck!!!
The rad I have is smaller both height and width. I would say there’s a good 1.5” on one side of the rad before it hits the frame it sits inside.
the original was a Harrison I believe which I haven’t had in my possession. It’s long gone.
I am jotting all this down on my post-it pad so I can compile a list of things to check off. I will measure spark plug are between cylinders. The temp should be about the same in those areas between cylinders right?
Question: when I check my timing, I have the innova light that does dwell and timing and rpm. I plug the distributor vacuum line at the carb, I cap it off. Hook the rest of the leads up properly and check my timing with the light. Dwell is adjusted to 30°.
why do my timing marks on the balancer not line up AT ALL!!?? Engine rpm is 850 like the manual says, with the distributor hose off.
they’re like a good 1.5” off. Looking at the mark on the block that lines up with the marks scribed in the balancer, they all three end up the the right of the mark, looking down at the engine by like, 1.5” and I cannot get them to line up. If I spin the distributor it really doesn’t even get them close. Am I missing something bigtime?
Do you have the timing light set to "0" or a specific number you're trying to reach. I set the dial to the specific timing number I want and then turn the distributor until the mark and pointer are aligned at "0".
Is the firing order correct and are you definitely on the #1 plug wire? Timing marks can be off due to a slipped harmonic balancer, this is when the outer ring of the balancer with the timing mark has spun slightly on the rubber that is between the outer ring and the inner ring.
I am guessing Sugar Bear is right on this one. It is very common for the ring on the balancer to slip on a car this old. There several companies that rebuild harmonic balancers. I used Damper Dudes when I had the one rebuilt on the 54 I had.
Is the firing order correct and are you definitely on the #1 plug wire? Timing marks can be off due to a slipped harmonic balancer, this is when the outer ring of the balancer with the timing mark has spun slightly on the rubber that is between the outer ring and the inner ring.
This is correct. The number one plug is on the drivers side of the engine, closest to the front of the car.
I am positively on the #1 wire. Yep. I guess for now, it’s been running not bad. Took it out today, about 87° decent humidity and tested it. Ran quite fine actually. No overheating. I would say its highest temp was like 220° and that was creeping around town. Soon as I get out to 40 mph she drops. I think she’s doing ok right now but per usual my friends, I will keep you updated.
I still do notice the exhaust crossover on the intake between cylinders has a higher temp than everything else despite the heater valve being open stuck open now. I was able to move it so I believe it is in the fully open position. Still, there is a high temp there on either side of the carb on that exhaust crossover….
If the exhaust crossover is hotter than all the rest of the intake, that is normal as long as the flapper valve in the exhaust manifold is known to be open. Both exhaust manifolds should be similar in temp to one another. Never seen a crossover without the paint burned away. Being hot on both sides is a good sign that the crossover isn't blocked with carbon.
Still running warm (230-235) creeping along in traffic. I have to try the last solution; removing the frost or freeze plugs? How big of a job is this? Should I drain the cooling system before I remove them? How difficult is it to remove old *** plugs?
at this point I’m thinking that there is more buildup in the block than I thought and those years of rust etc, is built around the cylinders keeping it hot and making the engine very warm?
There are three on each side of the block. You have to remove the starter motor, the engine mounts, and steering pump brackets and maybe the oil filter. It is not as much work as it sounds and I think it is the right way to get all the crud out. You will also be replacing 50 year old (assuming the engine is original) freeze plugs that have questionable remaining life, particularly with a neglected cooling system. I wouldn't want a core plug to spring a leak on the road in my car. Just saying.. MAW - install new engine mounts since they are going to be removed to access the core plugs.
BTW - did you ever install the correct size radiator?
...perhaps Vintage Chief...can offer an opinion on it or some advice.
I didn't offer an opinion earlier since I suspected it wasn't necessary when the OP stated:
Here is a picture of the particles are found in the top of the radiator overnight after has been completely cooled I tracked them to a magnet it happens every time I drive it and let it sit overnight
If they were retrieved w/ a magnet from an iron block...they're iron oxides (Fe2O3)...rust. Ethylene glycol (antifreeze) is an excellent solution which transfers heat better than H2O alone at higher temperatures, but ethylene glycol can increase the rate of oxidation of iron (Fe) & formation of rust when exposed to water & oxygen as: (1) it readily absorbs oxygen & water [highly hygroscopic] & (2) turns into an acid (further enhancing the oxidation of iron yielding rust). While effectively increasing the boiling point & reducing the freezing point of H2O, it provides no benefit in reducing oxidation of iron (Fe).
One of the primary reasons manufacturers state to employ distilled H2O in a closed loop (pressurized) ethylene glycol (antifreeze) cooling system is to help reduce the oxidation of iron; albeit, don't use tap water. Tap water can increase the rate of acid formation of ethylene glycol & tap water (depending on its hardness & mineral constituents) can increase the rate of corrosion of iron.
When you finally resolve the issue, the cooling system should be filled with distilled water + antifreeze - not tap water.
There are three on each side of the block. You have to remove the starter motor, the engine mounts, and steering pump brackets and maybe the oil filter. It is not as much work as it sounds and I think it is the right way to get all the crud out. You will also be replacing 50 year old (assuming the engine is original) freeze plugs that have questionable remaining life, particularly with a neglected cooling system. I wouldn't want a core plug to spring a leak on the road in my car. Just saying.. MAW - install new engine mounts since they are going to be removed to access the core plugs.
BTW - did you ever install the correct size radiator?
I have not installed a new rad yet. I’ve been looking around for one and yes, they are a little pricey especially if I want to get a good one.
would you recommend going brass like the original one? Or aluminum like I have in there now?
June 30th, 2022, 11:37 AM
