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Well, after Christmas I'll be digging into this. As much as I'd love to say this *should* be a relatively simple procedure (by that meaning, if it was installed "straight up", I'd only need to advance 2°) but after the extensive digging both here and elsewhere..I know better than to assume that.
Per the CSM, I'll need to pull the oil pan, but I've seen mixed opinions on that. I assume to ensure no leaks, the oil pan must come off..correct?
With regard to the CSM however, it also touched on a way to verify valve timing without a wheel..but mentioned valve events on cyl#4. Any particular reasoning for that? Or is that just more noise that I need to not worry about..and instead verify per degree instruction.
I have swapped cams a couple times without removing the oil pan. Getting the timing cover back on takes some work, but it is possible.
Yes,you can take the front bolts out and loosen a couple of the remaining bolts and put a flat blade screwdriver between the pan &block. That makes it easier.
So basically loose enough to allow the lip & seal in, then squash it back together essentially?
I wish I would've paid more attention when I took it apart..but I think I had the pan off well before the front cover.
It can be done without pulling the pan. When you get the cover off and start back with it clean everything good with carb/brake cleaner. Then put sealer on the rubber and the gasket and a little extra in the corners.
Joe P posted a method of using two cover bolts ground as eccentrics to get the cover over the oil pan front lip. Sounds like a very good method compared to my struggles.
Joe P posted a method of using two cover bolts ground as eccentrics to get the cover over the oil pan front lip. Sounds like a very good method compared to my struggles.
Not much to update...been pretty busy lately and unable to even focus much on the timing debacle.
I am hopefully going to start tearing into this over the weekend. At least getting the accessories off/shroud/fan. I'm super hesitant to drain the coolant until I know I'm going to be working on it at that time. Something about the block cracking once due to freeze/thaw just has me hesitant. I was skimming through the CSM and noticed it's method for verifying valve timing was to measure distance from (I think) the top of the pushrod to the top of the retainer seat, then to rotate the engine around to max lift and measure again (again, I think..I could be wrong but it was something like that). The oddest part however, it was measuring on cyl #4. I know I mentioned that previously in this thread, but I still find it somewhat odd. I understand the wheel is much more accurate, but will that at least allow me to measure without removing the intake/lifters for an accurate read on the wheel?
To be honest, I've also kicked the idea around of borrowing a 2-ton hoist, or even seeing if I can somehow modify my 1-ton for a longer boom/extra counterweight. If so, I'd just as soon yank it, send it down to the assembly shop, and schedule a day where I can be over his shoulder to not just fix it, but have it on the dyno to ensure the timing/compression/vacuum numbers are all where they should be.
You are WAAAY overthinking this. You don't need to take anything more than a valve cover off to verify the cam timing. Finding true TDC is an absolute though. Anything less is just a Ouija Board guess. Remove all the spark plugs so the engine is easier to turn. Knock the ceramic out of an old spark plug and thread the inside of the remaining metal for a bolt. You now have a positive piston stop. Only thread the bolt in far enough to stop piston #1 a few degrees BTDC and mark the harmonic balancer. Wind it backwards until it stops ATDC and mark the harmonic balancer. Be gentle! Half way between those two marks is your absolute TDC. Once you know this, get a harmonic balancer timing tape that fits yours and install as precision as you can. Instant degree wheel! You can get within 1~2 degrees with the tape and you don't have to take everything off the front of the engine to do it. Get a magnetic base dial indicator and zero it on the base circle of intake cam lobe of cylinder #1.Turn the crank until you reach .050 lift of the intake cam lobe and compare it to the cam card. Done!
You don't need to take any more of the engine apart unless or until you find the cam is more than a few degrees off.
I'm super hesitant to drain the coolant until I know I'm going to be working on it at that time. Something about the block cracking once due to freeze/thaw just has me hesitant.
Your block will not crack if there is no water in it to freeze and expand.
Your block will not crack if there is no water in it to freeze and expand.
Interesting. Maybe it cracked then due to having been drained but water (rain/snow) was in it. It was explained to me when I first opened it up and saw the busted cylinder walls..I just can't remember. Didn't ever think I'd need to think any more about it, honestly.
You are WAAAY overthinking this. You don't need to take anything more than a valve cover off to verify the cam timing. Finding true TDC is an absolute though. Anything less is just a Ouija Board guess. Remove all the spark plugs so the engine is easier to turn. Knock the ceramic out of an old spark plug and thread the inside of the remaining metal for a bolt. You now have a positive piston stop. Only thread the bolt in far enough to stop piston #1 a few degrees BTDC and mark the harmonic balancer. Wind it backwards until it stops ATDC and mark the harmonic balancer. Be gentle! Half way between those two marks is your absolute TDC. Once you know this, get a harmonic balancer timing tape that fits yours and install as precision as you can. Instant degree wheel! You can get within 1~2 degrees with the tape and you don't have to take everything off the front of the engine to do it. Get a magnetic base dial indicator and zero it on the base circle of intake cam lobe of cylinder #1.Turn the crank until you reach .050 lift of the intake cam lobe and compare it to the cam card. Done!
You don't need to take any more of the engine apart unless or until you find the cam is more than a few degrees off.
Well, you're right. I do that. I think I mentioned somewhere I'm the person who over-researches and sometimes when I do that I find a half dozen different ways to do it and can't keep them straight..ha!
Yes, finding true TDC is a must. I believe that even though my balancer is new, it is incorrect (the mark is incorrect vs the keyway) so I'd planned on once again verifying that and just putting timing tape on it and using the correct "0" on the tab. I didn't realize you could use the timing tape however to act as a "degree wheel", but then again I've never messed with a degree wheel so this entire process is new.
I'll need to take the front of the engine apart to address the gears, as I'm certain the culprit is that the cam is installed retarded-I just don't know yet how much. When using the dial indicator however, am I just using measurement of the top of the pushrod? Being that it's a dial indicator, it wouldn't be enough pressure to depress the lifter and give a false reading, right?
If you remove the rocker arms from the cylinder that you're checking, the dial indicator will not depress the lifter. Just be sure to push down on the push rod when the lifter is on the base circle as there won't be any spring pressure to seat the lifter against the cam.
Last edited by maxi426; December 5th, 2023 at 03:59 PM.
Joe P posted a method of using two cover bolts ground as eccentrics to get the cover over the oil pan front lip. Sounds like a very good method compared to my struggles.
I remeber seeing that post by Joe, but can't find it now, If anyone has the link I'd appreciate it.
If you remove the rocker arms from the cylinder that you're checking, the dial indicator will not depress the lifter. Just be sure to push down on the push rod when the lifter is on the base circle as there won't be any spring pressure to seat the lifter against the cam.
Gotcha, okay that makes sense.
Ironically, Pops sent me a text last night that he was able to get in touch with our old mechanic (practically hung out at his shop even when we didn't have stuff to work on) and was told he may be able to get to degreeing the cam in the spring. Seeing he has much more experience with it, and knowing some of the cars he's built over the years..if his pricing is reasonable we may just hold off and have him do it. Regardless though, this "adventure" has me really wanting to pick up an engine off of Marketplace or something and just tear it apart and rebuild it, to learn more about (and have the hands on experience) things such as cam timing. In HS, we had a small engine station during one of our classes-but you were only there for a week and didn't get to learn much. The last engine I'd built prior to this, Dad did all the assembly work at the aforementioned mechanics shop. Granted, he put the wrong head gaskets on and so we had the top end apart a couple times before realizing the geometry was wrong, but still..it was a strong runner.
I hope to have an answer by the end of the week as to whether we're going to schedule this to be done in the spring, or go ahead and do it myself. I may go ahead and get the timing tape/piston stop/dial indicator ready (some of that ordered) that way I'm ready to rock and roll if we don't schedule it.
You can figure out where it’s at off the pushrod without pulling the intake manifold as long as you make sure the p rod doesn’t move around during rotation.
the problem is the spring in your dial indicator isn’t strong enough to keep the lifter and P rod following the lobe on the closing ramp when the engine’s in the car because it’s laid over, there is too much friction, plus the engine oil and weight of the p rod …it’s to much for the dial indicator internal return spring to keep it following the lobe.
here’s what I do to degree a cam that is unknown in an engine without pulling the intake....just one set of rockers
I add an extra return spring to my dial indicator between the removable tip and the body. This keeps the lifter and p rod in contact with the closing ramp. once you find true TDC and mark your damper, then it’s easy to mark BDC ..once that’s marked you need to mark the damper in increments after BDC so you can find out the closing point at .050”. That’s all you need to know…you know the cam specs. So knowing the closing at .050” will tell you everything .
the diameter of the damper should be 6.5”,, so you can figure out the circumference then divide by 360 to know the per degree measurement. You only need to mark it after BDC at one point, like 45, then roll it over to see where the .050” closing is in relation to your 45deg mark…the difference can then be figured out.
Well, Dad put the car on the schedule..but I still have no idea what it'll cost. He told Dad he wouldn't really know until closer to time.
I'm going to go ahead and order what tools I need though (caliper/dial indicator) as I've had uses for both in the past anyway just never pulled the trigger. I may just get antsy though and go ahead and check it myself. Otherwise, I won't have the hands on understanding that I clearly need.
Got the caliper/dial/magnetic base ordered this morning. Whether I end up doing this, or we have the mechanic do it-that's still tbd. I have needed those tools however (along with a couple other things I'd been dragging my feet on) so this just served as a good enough excuse to pull the trigger.
I'm low-key leaning toward just doing it myself, honestly. If I do, I'll try to remember to also snap some pictures that can go along with what @CANADIANOLDS is explaining. As he said, and I agree with this stance, it will be good for others who end up in this predicament and need to know how to do it.
Well, most of the tools necessary came in today..I'm hoping to have the piston stop & timing tape in within the next couple of days..and from there Ill start game planning when I can get out to the garage and start working on this.
I may use my old balancer as an example when scribing the degree marks in the meantime though.
You’ll also need an ultra fine point Sharpie permanent marker. use a colour that’s easy to see against the damper colour.
you don’t really need timing tape. where did you get it from and what diameter damper is it for?
Well..I ordered a set of MSD tape that had like 6 different sizes..but in going back after seeing your message I noticed there isn't one for the 6.5". A quick Google search isn't looking promising either, so I may find one of those printable ones and see if we can convert it to be used on the wife's Cricut.
To your point though, yeah I don't really need one. Just a different color to re-mark my TDC as well as other various points. Initially, the tape was "in addition to" since the mark on the new balancer does not line up with the tab. I thought about comparing it to the factory balancer & it's mark..but it won't change anything.
As said before, measure around the balancer to get an accurate circumference measurement, then divide that length by 360 to get 1 degree = x inches, then use that number to make marks at something like every 10 degrees. I made marks at 10 degree intervals up to 30 degrees, then at 2 degree intervals from 30 to 40 degrees. A white paint pen works well for making the marks.
As said before, measure around the balancer to get an accurate circumference measurement, then divide that length by 360 to get 1 degree = x inches, then use that number to make marks at something like every 10 degrees. I made marks at 10 degree intervals up to 30 degrees, then at 2 degree intervals from 30 to 40 degrees. A white paint pen works well for making the marks.
Yeah, it's definitely a good idea..and probably one I'll have to utilize. I'm not sure about printing the one off the interwebs and putting it on the cricut will translate right. Too many variables for my simple mind.
Alright..had a bit after work so I took the time to verify TDC. It was 1/16th off from the scribe on the balancer, but now showing closer to 10° BTDC on the tab (it was marked with a fat marker at first..so thats proving to be tough to decyfer) So I guess that raises the question of is the keyway on the new balancer in the correct location in relation to the scribe on the balancer.
With that being said however..im off to go find an extra return spring for the dial indicator and hope to be able to pull the alt/bracket/valve cover/rocker.
I need to figure out how Im going to accurately mark the balancer with everything in the way..but I reckon that gives me something to ponder this evening.
Last edited by brotherGood; December 15th, 2023 at 12:54 PM.
I have an engine in for a refresh here. Before I pull it apart I’ll walk through checking the true tdc vs the damper tdc, marking the damper and checking your int valve closing point.
to be as accurate as possible, you’ll need an ultra fine tip sharpie or something similar
Last edited by CANADIANOLDS; December 16th, 2023 at 01:34 AM.
I have an engine in for a refresh here. Before I pull it apart I’ll walk through checking the true tdc vs the damper tdc, marking the damper and checking your int valve closing point.
to be as accurate as possible, you’ll need an ultra fine tip sharpie or something similar
Yeah, I just verified true TDC. I picked up a pack of assorted colored fine tip Sharpies so that I could keep track of what I was doing and not get my marks confused. I'm to the point know where I need to scribe the balance with my degree marks and then open up the valve cover and start measuring against the pushrod. I'm just not entirely sure how best to mark not only my degree points before and after TDC, but also to mark BDC with the crank pulley still attached.
Well, I didn't get many pictures of the step-by-step..but I pulled the valve cover & rocker off and checked everything this afternoon. After wasting about an hour spinning the engine backwards and not realizing it (yes, it was one of those days) we got it spun around and upon verifying against the intake pushrod..its measuring out to be about 16° retarded. While it would explain the low compression/low vacuum/terrible tunablilty..however being that far off makes me wonder how the heck it ran to begin with. After pestering @cutlassefi more than I'm sure either of us cared to mess with on a Saturday, he brought up the fact that it could very well be related to the timing chain that was used and purchased from the machine shop.
Tomorrow I’ll post how to degree the damper. You need to remove the bottom pulley to get it right because you also have to find true BDC. It’s much easier with the pulley off
It is awesome that you were able to prove what you suspected the problem to be. 16° is a LOT! Hopefully you can get a quality timing set that will allow you to zero in the cam and start burning the tires off that car. Now that you can degree a cam, it will be easier to just fix it than pull the engine and have the builder fix it. Just sux that you have to...
Tomorrow I’ll post how to degree the damper. You need to remove the bottom pulley to get it right because you also have to find true BDC. It’s much easier with the pulley off
I would have to agree..much easier with the pulley off. Laying underneath with the caliper set to 11.3 and going dot by dot was pretty tedious. Had to stop a few times because I felt I was going cross eyed..ha!
Originally Posted by cjsdad
It is awesome that you were able to prove what you suspected the problem to be. 16° is a LOT! Hopefully you can get a quality timing set that will allow you to zero in the cam and start burning the tires off that car. Now that you can degree a cam, it will be easier to just fix it than pull the engine and have the builder fix it. Just sux that you have to...
Yeah..it was one of those deals where I was thankful yet disappointed at the same time. I'm also pretty curious how much of it is due to the chain. I wish I could remember what brand it is..but all I remember is that it's a double roller. I do know that whether it was a 1 or 3 keyway, it wouldn't have allowed the builder to set it at 2° advanced like the spec sheet calls out.
Also, the more I think on that 16°..the more it puzzles me. 16° is when it showed .050 lift, however if I read the sheet correctly, the events at .050 show the intake opening at 8. But. I've got so many numbers floating around in my head, I'm just gonna get a quality timing set, put it on zero and go from there.
Even if I'm still 2° off, it's a lot closer than it has been. At least close enough to finally set timing where it should be, have vacuum where it should be, etc and have the torque that Ive expected this entire time.
As per our conversation, the 8* is BTDC is as per the cam card.
The potential 16* is AFTER TDC. Big difference.
I’m sorry, but I believe you’re making this more difficult than it needs to be. Simply verify TDC, and mark it however you want to. Then rotate the engine clockwise until you see .050 lift on the intake pushrod. At that point you simply look to see if the marks are even remotely close to what you marked as TDC. That’ll give you a reference point in order to move forward or not.
Last edited by cutlassefi; December 17th, 2023 at 07:06 AM.
As per our conversation, the 8* is BTDC as per the cam card.
The potential 16* is AFTER TDC. Big difference.
I’m sorry, but I believe you’re making this more difficult than it needs to be. Simply verify TDC, and mark it however you want to. Back it up, then rotate the engine clockwise until you see .050 lift on the pushrod. At that point you simply look to see if the marks are even remotely close to what you marked as TDC. That’ll give you a reference point in order to move forward or not.
Yeah..I am..haha. it made sense when we talked..then we got to wondering A. How the chain could be 16° off and B. How it ran being that far off.
With that being said though, I'm going to finish putting everything back together this afternoon (basically alternator and plug wires) and hope to hit the chain job while I'm off over Christmas/New Years.
Just need to remember to back the initial timing down a tad as I'm assuming it'll now be too far advanced.
Good lord. I’m gonna take a wild guess,, you didn’t do the marking correctly.
if it’s 24deg retarded, it would have just about no compression.
I mean, I marked it as I understood how it was posted previously. However, im perfectly okay if come to find out I did it incorrectly based on what you post for your how-to.
Not much to report, other than chain/gaskets should be here today. I'm hoping I can get the garage nice and toasty Friday night and start opening things up Saturday to swap the chain out. Gonna try to do this without lifting the engine/removing the oil pan. After pulling the valve covers off though, I'm curious how the oil pan gasket is going to look when loosening the first few bolts to get the timing cover/front seal off.
Is there anything I need to keep an eye out for/or any quick tips to help make things easier? I've never messed with assembly to this extent, let alone while it's still in the car. The closest I've done (assembly) has been just heads/intake installations. I've read the CSM a few times, and for some reason that seems a bit more daunting of a task than what I've found online.
November 24th, 2023, 11:59 AM
