Chgange to Fast Ratio Steering Gear
April 7th, 2015, 10:28 AM
#41
Registered User
Join Date: Jan 2014
Location: Camdenton, MO
Posts: 342
You can reference a 1980 chevy C10 pickup. That will come up with the Dorman 31011 I used or the Lares 200.
One note on the Lares vs Dorman. I found the Dorman to be about 2x the price of the Lares. On most things I would have bought the cheaper one, but for a steering coupler, I'll spend the extra $20.
One note on the Lares vs Dorman. I found the Dorman to be about 2x the price of the Lares. On most things I would have bought the cheaper one, but for a steering coupler, I'll spend the extra $20.
April 7th, 2015, 01:49 PM
#42
72 Olds CS
Join Date: Jun 2011
Posts: 6,657
I know you guys are adamant about the JGC box mod and for good reason its a big improvement, we're all on the same page upgrading to a FR box works good and provides better feel. I was gonna go that way initially too, but heres why i didnt
used JGC box ~$50
rag Joint ~$50
adapters to fit an SAE hose in a metric box or new metric hose in an SAE application~$20-$50
or rebuilt lares box lifetime warenty from Rockauto w new rag joint included that works w original hose(s) and doesn't add additional adapters or complexity $~180
I have no interests in lares or rockauto but I do like a good value and for the ~$30-50 more the rebuilt box w lifetime warrenty is worth it.
used JGC box ~$50
rag Joint ~$50
adapters to fit an SAE hose in a metric box or new metric hose in an SAE application~$20-$50
or rebuilt lares box lifetime warenty from Rockauto w new rag joint included that works w original hose(s) and doesn't add additional adapters or complexity $~180
I have no interests in lares or rockauto but I do like a good value and for the ~$30-50 more the rebuilt box w lifetime warrenty is worth it.
Last edited by RetroRanger; April 7th, 2015 at 07:38 PM.
April 7th, 2015, 05:44 PM
#43
Registered User
Join Date: Jul 2012
Location: Spokane Washington
Posts: 383
Looks like a quick steer box of your choice and added caster is the trick. No more land-yacht. I dislike the mush bucket feel of my steering and even though working properly I have no feeling of the road it's like a driving simulator wheel.
Some of the improved physics going on here comes from the ratio change which by itself may not be enough? Adding more camber adds drag or load to the wheel as well more powerful "snap to center" when you release the wheel turning. There was something about Camero IROC boxes that are desirable for this magic ratio? I think any good combo of box/camber will take the way-over-power-assisted feel out. It's awful but they thought it was cool yachting on the couch in the day.
Some of the improved physics going on here comes from the ratio change which by itself may not be enough? Adding more camber adds drag or load to the wheel as well more powerful "snap to center" when you release the wheel turning. There was something about Camero IROC boxes that are desirable for this magic ratio? I think any good combo of box/camber will take the way-over-power-assisted feel out. It's awful but they thought it was cool yachting on the couch in the day.
April 7th, 2015, 06:36 PM
#44
Registered User
Join Date: Jul 2009
Location: Brooklyn, NY
Posts: 1,951
You can reference a 1980 chevy C10 pickup. That will come up with the Dorman 31011 I used or the Lares 200.
One note on the Lares vs Dorman. I found the Dorman to be about 2x the price of the Lares. On most things I would have bought the cheaper one, but for a steering coupler, I'll spend the extra $20.
One note on the Lares vs Dorman. I found the Dorman to be about 2x the price of the Lares. On most things I would have bought the cheaper one, but for a steering coupler, I'll spend the extra $20.
April 8th, 2015, 06:26 AM
#45
Registered User
Join Date: Jan 2014
Location: Camdenton, MO
Posts: 342
I used the Dorman, bought it locally so I could check fit.
But if you search for that application (ebay, rock auto, etc), you'll see both listed. The Lares is about $20 cheaper, which screams Chinese knockoff to me. I've had too many bad experiences with Chinese parts, and steering is one place I don't want to chance it.
But if you search for that application (ebay, rock auto, etc), you'll see both listed. The Lares is about $20 cheaper, which screams Chinese knockoff to me. I've had too many bad experiences with Chinese parts, and steering is one place I don't want to chance it.
Last edited by garys 68&72; April 8th, 2015 at 06:28 AM.
April 8th, 2015, 12:55 PM
#49
Rodney
Join Date: Jun 2011
Location: Houston, TX
Posts: 2,343
The amount of caster will be limited by the number of shims you can fit on the A-frame bolts. I would run the most positive caster as you can; probably around 2 degrees. If you have the Moog offset shafts on your UCAs you can get a little more.
April 8th, 2015, 03:16 PM
#50
Registered User
Join Date: Sep 2009
Location: Austin, TX
Posts: 331
I learned all about Jeep boxes with my 67. It is a system, and if you don't address the pump volume and pressure, you won't like the way the steering feels. My pump is out at Lee's right now, and he's rebuilding it to match my Jeep steering box and alignment specs. Steered like a tank without redoing the pump.
Tim
Tim
April 8th, 2015, 03:22 PM
#51
Registered User
Join Date: Jul 2009
Location: Brooklyn, NY
Posts: 1,951
I learned all about Jeep boxes with my 67. It is a system, and if you don't address the pump volume and pressure, you won't like the way the steering feels. My pump is out at Lee's right now, and he's rebuilding it to match my Jeep steering box and alignment specs. Steered like a tank without redoing the pump.
Tim
Tim
April 8th, 2015, 03:35 PM
#52
Registered User
Thread Starter
Join Date: Dec 2007
Location: Fort Pierce, FL
Posts: 1,124
According the Chevelle Thread, the pressure issue is for pre-1970 cars which only had 950 lbs. pressure. The 1970 and up produce 1450 lbs./ and it is not an issue.
I learned all about Jeep boxes with my 67. It is a system, and if you don't address the pump volume and pressure, you won't like the way the steering feels. My pump is out at Lee's right now, and he's rebuilding it to match my Jeep steering box and alignment specs. Steered like a tank without redoing the pump.
Tim
Tim
April 8th, 2015, 04:23 PM
#53
Connoisseur d'Junque
Join Date: Sep 2010
Location: The Hudson Valley
Posts: 21,183
If you've got a pre-'70 pump, all you need to do is unscrew one of these from a later pump while you are at the junkyard.
An added bonus is that if you want to use later O-ring fittings on your car, you can take one from a later pump and it will have an O-ring connection.
- Eric
April 10th, 2015, 05:20 AM
#56
Registered User
Join Date: May 2009
Posts: 1,452
Brown:
Just to clarify my previous post. I had my '72 gear box rebuilt and the shop converted it from a 16:1 variable ratio to a 12:1 fixed ratio. I did this on a '71 Cutlass I built years ago and the difference was amazing. With the old gear the car seemed sloppy and loose at the center (going straight) but it gradually tightened up the farther I turned the wheel. Some of the sloppiness was due to worn out parts, but a lot of it was inherent in the design of the variable ratio gear box which I was told was closer to 20:1 in the middle range and gradually increased to 16:1 at the extremes. With the fixed 12:1 gear my car was much more responsive (without the 20:1 ratio in the middle) without being "twitchy" and the steering was more predictable as well because the fixed ratio was consistent throughout the full travel of the gear box. I hope this helps.
Rodney
Just to clarify my previous post. I had my '72 gear box rebuilt and the shop converted it from a 16:1 variable ratio to a 12:1 fixed ratio. I did this on a '71 Cutlass I built years ago and the difference was amazing. With the old gear the car seemed sloppy and loose at the center (going straight) but it gradually tightened up the farther I turned the wheel. Some of the sloppiness was due to worn out parts, but a lot of it was inherent in the design of the variable ratio gear box which I was told was closer to 20:1 in the middle range and gradually increased to 16:1 at the extremes. With the fixed 12:1 gear my car was much more responsive (without the 20:1 ratio in the middle) without being "twitchy" and the steering was more predictable as well because the fixed ratio was consistent throughout the full travel of the gear box. I hope this helps.
Rodney
April 10th, 2015, 06:15 AM
#57
Rodney
Join Date: Jun 2011
Location: Houston, TX
Posts: 2,343
Gear rebuilder
I used Adco in Houston, TX 713-681-1446, ask for Neal. A lot of guys use Powersteering.com, but Neal is about $100 less and does a good job. I had Neal rebuild my pump at the same time because my car had been sitting in Texas cow pasture for about 10 years and I didn't know if it was any good. I think I paid $350 for the gear conversion and pump rebuild.
Here's a pic.
I painted the cover bolts, Neal just sprays some machine gray paint on the whole box.
Here's a pic.
I painted the cover bolts, Neal just sprays some machine gray paint on the whole box.
April 10th, 2015, 02:59 PM
#58
Registered User
Join Date: Sep 2009
Location: Austin, TX
Posts: 331
Looks like a quick steer box of your choice and added caster is the trick. No more land-yacht. I dislike the mush bucket feel of my steering and even though working properly I have no feeling of the road it's like a driving simulator wheel.
Some of the improved physics going on here comes from the ratio change which by itself may not be enough? Adding more camber adds drag or load to the wheel as well more powerful "snap to center" when you release the wheel turning. There was something about Camero IROC boxes that are desirable for this magic ratio? I think any good combo of box/camber will take the way-over-power-assisted feel out. It's awful but they thought it was cool yachting on the couch in the day.
Some of the improved physics going on here comes from the ratio change which by itself may not be enough? Adding more camber adds drag or load to the wheel as well more powerful "snap to center" when you release the wheel turning. There was something about Camero IROC boxes that are desirable for this magic ratio? I think any good combo of box/camber will take the way-over-power-assisted feel out. It's awful but they thought it was cool yachting on the couch in the day.
Tim
April 10th, 2015, 05:58 PM
#59
Registered User
Join Date: Jul 2012
Location: Spokane Washington
Posts: 383
Interesting Tim. Thanks for filling in the voodoo that gives you this "heavier" feel. I didn't know why it works but your explanation makes sense. I meant wheel load or resistance not "drag". I wondered if a large pulley on the pump may load that baby down? Now I'm thinking no as a poster demonstrated pressure may be regulated but the pump pressure doesn't effect steering wheel load or drag.
This thread should continue with more success stories detailed. I think many of us want a better steering feel? I sure have trouble adapting to the couch yacht hopping over from my daily driver. I'm fine after a few minutes but that first few miles are strange indeed.
This thread should continue with more success stories detailed. I think many of us want a better steering feel? I sure have trouble adapting to the couch yacht hopping over from my daily driver. I'm fine after a few minutes but that first few miles are strange indeed.
April 14th, 2015, 12:05 PM
#60
Registered User
Join Date: May 2008
Location: SE MI
Posts: 329
What radio did you have them change it to? Are you happy with it?
I used Adco in Houston, TX 713-681-1446, ask for Neal. A lot of guys use Powersteering.com, but Neal is about $100 less and does a good job. I had Neal rebuild my pump at the same time because my car had been sitting in Texas cow pasture for about 10 years and I didn't know if it was any good. I think I paid $350 for the gear conversion and pump rebuild.
Here's a pic.
I painted the cover bolts, Neal just sprays some machine gray paint on the whole box.
Here's a pic.
I painted the cover bolts, Neal just sprays some machine gray paint on the whole box.
April 14th, 2015, 01:56 PM
#61
Rodney
Join Date: Jun 2011
Location: Houston, TX
Posts: 2,343
I think they changed to a 12.7:1 ratio. I'm still building this car so I haven't driven it yet. But I did this conversion to a previous build (the car in my avatar pic) and it was just right for a daily driver; not too twitchy and consistent response from lock to lock. With the original variable ratio gear, the car was sloppy in the middle and as you turned the wheel the ratio got quicker. I hated this because it was so un responsive and unpredictable.
April 29th, 2015, 06:13 PM
#62
Registered User
Join Date: Feb 2009
Location: New Jersey
Posts: 229
Hey all, just switched out my steering gear for a rebuilt lares 972 fast ratio box. Everything bolt on, no issues. Only had a chance to drive a few miles. Box is still pretty tight but handles much better, no more wandering on the road. Takes about 2 1/4 to 2 1/2 turns side to side. Total cost was $165 delivered to the house from Advanced auto. Thanks for all the info from the thread!
Joe
Joe
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