dmcianfa

Yeah, that's what I thought. NOt sure that it's even worth fixing being it's got a '65 400 motor for it that's a rare one in terms of motors due to the forged crank, but the car is a plain jane F-85 cutlass. Anyway, I'll see what other folks think with some of these pictures. I'm thinking of just buying a rolling '65 442and drop this 400 in it. hmmmm. Use this for parts maybe? The thing is most if not all the rust is surface only and not beyond blast or grind repair. Frame is solid all the way, floor boards are intact, and the car has overall clean lines with working doors trunk and hood that sounds and feels good when opening and closing. Body panels are salvageable too with only minimal replacement of the passenger rear wheel wheel about 1 ft square of replacement sheet will be needed. Wierd thing is it has front and rear sway bars and rear control arms on it with dual exhaust and I did find some 442 decals inside of the cab. I heard that olds made some 400 cid's in mid to late '64 according to the cowl tag this is a July production. Anyway, I could always clone it I guess and throw a M-21 in it, but that's not my style either. Who knows now, I've got this great motor that can turn upwards of 7,000 rpm and has about 380 horses and no 442 possibly. hmmm. What about the W-W on the cowl tag. I saw some documents that say the color is Midnight mist or something along those lines, but for a '65 it relays it as Lucerne Blue Mist, which is what the interior and exterior color is. Any luck on deciphering the rest of the cowl tag.

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stan 65 cutlass

cool car, looks like a great start,seen alot worse turned into nice wheels. cant have a better engine either.

dmcianfa

Still need some help with deciphering the code on 1964 cowl tags. What's the W-W mean? other items on tag? How do you know if a 64 is a 442 or not? I know this car probably isn't, but if I look for a true 442 what should I look for? I know about front and rear stabilizer bars and boxed rear control arms, but is there anything else besides the front fender emblem and rear trunk emblem. I also know it has to be a manual transmission originally and have the 330 4 barrel, but other mechanical giveaways such as frame, body or interior. Anything on the id tags or what cars were 442's sequence wise or VIN?

bil

Nice looking car-too nice to just use as parts! Why not make a sleeper out of it,fix it up nice as a clean 64 Cutlass with the 400.Most of the major body parts won't fit a 65,close,but the lines are just a bit softer on the 64.I would do this one up,it is in good shape for the year.No holes in the front fender for 442 emblems,maybe someone was going to build a clone,seeing it already has the sway bars and boxed arms.If you find a rolling 65,you can always use the 400 in that and a 330 in this,but this is worth fixing.You don't see as many 64,at least where I am,mostly 65s.
(all at my house) At the Oldsmobile weekend at Englishtown many years ago,everyone was going nuts over a real nice 64 442,claimed to be real.It looked familiar,and I had my pictures from a few years earlier.Looked through,and sure enough,the engine had grown 70 CI,and the fenders had sprouted numbers! The car still had the same number plates,though! Nice find you have!

dmcianfa

I read somewhere that 2G means "Cutlass bucket seats". Are you sure you have the right information. I would like to see a list of accessory codes if you have them in some historical document. I can't seem to find anything related to this.

TK-65

Seat code is next to TRIM on the tag.

And no bench seat in a 64 or 65 Cutlass hardtop.

stan 65 cutlass

check this out with what your numbers are http://baileysclassicautos.com/1964_442.htm

wmachine

2G means a "broadcast column 2" G which is for a console (specifically console brackets).

There is no such documents for the codes. We have the information because it has been compiled for over 25 years.

dmcianfa

According to the link, which describes a cutlass convertible 442 from '64 "2L" in ACC means "Cutlass Convertible". So, I'm assuming that "2G" from my cowl means "Cutlass Hardtop/Coupe". This is explained in an Oldmobile Historical Center Letter that the link shows. I was wrong about the bucket seats I think, but I'm not so sure you are right either without any reference. How can you be sure it means console auto? What about the 963 under Trim?

TK-65

I dont want to sound like an *** but there are people in this thread that have been dealing with these cars for years. Seen eveything there is, and heard a lot of BS. You are asking questions and getting the right answers. So trust the people here when they tell you the answers, not another site that has gasp! wrong info on Oldsmobiles.

2L is for a 4 speed transmission. Again, 2G is for the floor console with auto trans, which your car has. The ACC line on the plate is for option codes, but not all option codes are included. BODY is where your body style code is, TRIM is where you interior code is. PAINT is your paint code. BODY is the number of Cutlass Hardtops made at that point. Yours was the 23,579 hardtop made for model year 1964.

dmcianfa

Not so sure this is a real 442 either? I thought 442's in 1964 were late production models. This cowl tag in this link shows it was manufactured in March. Isn't that before the higher ups at Olds made the decision to add 442's to production. I was under the assumption they didn't start manufacturing these models until late in the production calendar (mid-summer). Does anyone know when the production calendar starts and stops for a particular year for gm companies? Don't they start making new year models in October or something?

dmcianfa

I hope I'm not coming accross the wrong way, which I think you must have thought, but I apologize if I had. I know there is a wealth of knowledge on this site and folks have been doing this a long time, I'm just asking for a bit of reference to the thoughts behind the decoding. Don't take it personal please it wasn't meant that way. I'm just asking how you can validate your findings on these codes. At least the link shows a document that explains his particular car's codes and their meanings. not to say that a document can't be forged either, but at least there is something behind the thought pattern.

I do agree with you that Cutlass hardtop shouldn't be under ACC, so I think this guy on the link does have some screwball stuff going on with his info. I don't know. I hope folks aren't just taking codes they know are on '65 tags and transferring the thought to '64 tags, because there are plenty of differences between the two in other areas of decoding as well. Trust me I know what ACC, TRIM, BODY, PAINT stand for this is not my first rodeo. I've decoded my camaro long ago and am quite familiar with GM Tags and their subtitles included in them, just not the numbers oldsmobile used to distinguish particular items under those subtitles and that is what I'm asking help for. I know I shouldn't look a gift horse in the mouth, but I'm the type of person to not only accept what someone is telling me to be true, but to understand why as well. Hope that helps some.

Just saw documents on a site that lists 963 as Blue Vinyl Interior. So that's great. If I'm going to restore this thing, I would like to keep the colors original.

TK-65

The code system was the same from 64 to 67. Different codes for some options but the system was the same. 2L in 64 is the same as 2L in 67. 2G is the same. That vert has 2 L-G, 4 speed with console.

The document couldve been made by the seller of the car. To dupe people that dont really know 64 442s. I think you really want this car to be a 64 442 but its not. Sorry.

dmcianfa

I'm still wondering where or how you know this to be true.

What does the 2 mean? exactly

The L is with the 2? why, what does it mean exactly

The G is seperated with a dash, is that different as opposed to right next to the 2? Does it still mean console even if not seperated with the dash.

I am looking for a list, but I'm afraid you cannot provide that, only tribal knowledge, which isn't always fact either. Mostly is, but isn't always. I need hard evidence before I decide to either part it out or rebuild it or spend tons of money on something. Maybe I will still rebuild it even though it's not a 442, who knows, it's a sweet enough car, but I just want to be sure before I embark on a costly adventure. That's all, so if I do I can do it in the proper fashion. Anyway, sorry I offended you I guess....

TK-65

I quit.

64Olds98

TK if you provide me with all of the '64 codes that you know I'll copy and paste them and make it look really legit. Photoshop is magical.

64Olds98

Also, fix the f-85 and call it what it is: Awesome. It doesn't have to be a 442; it still looks just as good. It will be a beast when you're done

joe_padavano

Look, you've been given good info by knowledgeable people here, and every time you get an answer you don't like, you ask the same question again. Yes, to an uninvolved observer, it does sound like you really want the car to be a 442. That's understandable, I would too, but it really doesn't sound like it is. The "2" simply refers to Column 2. There were five "columns" used on the data plates for 64-67. The specific letters used in each column represented different installed equipment. This web page provides more detail on the 1965 data plates, including an explanation of what letters have been documented to show up in which columns, and what they have been documented to mean.

Yes, it is specific to 1965, but 64 will be very similar.

http://442restoration.homestead.com/AccCiphers.html

stan 65 cutlass

all i did was google 64 cutlass codes and came up with this link. didnt think it was bogus?

TK-65

From another post about a 64 vert,. Good enough for you????

Per Dennis Urban, OCA advisor for 1964 Cutlass/442, who was kind enough to look these up while on the phone. I hope I got the read back correct:

64-3267 = Cutlass convertable
LA-1835 = Lansing plant, body# 1835
967 = Parchment white interior W = Midnight mist paint
2L-G = Manual shift floor with brackets for console assy

dmcianfa

I've put in a request to the GM Heritage Center in Livonia. I'm sure Dennis is right, but I'm gonna go right to the horse's mouth and get as much info as possible about this car. I guess I'm just not one to believe everything I see on the net, which seems to be the going rate lately. Anyway, thanks for the help though and look forward to posting pics if I choose to rebuild it and look forward to chatting more about olds with all you fellas.

wmachine

Okay, have at it.
But I can tell you now that you will find nothing there about the codes. Like I told you in a previous post.
I know more about the codes than the GMHC does. And I can tell you more about your car than the GMHC can. I've not only corresponded with them, I've made numerous trips there doing research. That's how I know, and why I say this.

The problem you have here is that the horse doesn't have all the information to start with.

TK-65

Do you have proof of these trips Kurt? Any pics of you actually being there? And validated parking stubs?

He got the right answer from us, the right answer from the 64 advisor in the OCA, what else does he want? There is no PHS, no Marti Report. All we have are the guys that have been into these cars since they were new. He needs to accept that.

wmachine

dmcianfa

Hmmm, that's unfortunate. You think they would have vast knowledge of their practices in the past. I'm afraid your going to be right if you've been there yourself and have done just such research. I'm not trying to be a di$#, just would like to know for sure, that's all. Thanks for all the input.

joe_padavano

The records of what specific equipment was installed on each car built no longer exists for Oldsmobiles built prior to the 1977 model year (unless the car was built or first sold in Canada). What you're going to get from the Heritage center is a form letter that decodes your VIN and gives you the build date. This is info you already have from this thread. Others have done the same thing and gotten the same response.

dmcianfa

not much of a resource are they then, huh? I would have expected more than that, but I suppose olds thought record keeping wasn't their strong suit, but building kick **** cars was!!!

stevengerard

it wasn't that they didn't keep records its that they were lost in a fire, not burned but ruined by water damage if I remember correctly

wmachine

Okay, let's nip that one in the bud (again).
Yes, it *was* that they didn't keep the records. No, it wasn't a fire.
Not like Olds was the only one not to keep old production records. They don't exist for Chevy either.
The question really isn't why didn't they, but why should they have kept them?

ent72olds

Kurt, I guess if they would have been smart(er), they would have kept the records better...

wmachine

It may seem like that now, but what *would* have been the reason to keep them? There was no business reason to keep them. It costs money to keep *anything*. There would have been no justification to keep them. Pontiac did not keep their records. Their records were (and still are) kept by enthusiasts, not by Pontiac. It only doesn't seem smart in retrospect.

Oldsguy

Since this thread has grown way beyond the normal "here's a new guy" with "welcome aboard" messages, I moved it.

stan 65 cutlass

gm canada made $55 off me for a copy of thier records, plus $45 for a copy of their key codes

joe_padavano

Keep in mind that auto companies are in business to sell new cars, not provide restoration services for old ones. Before digital storage media, the cost to store decades of production records was prohibitive. This is the same reason why you can't get a CarFax record of a car that old.

stevengerard

Ok, so all those threads/rumors about water damage are false - got it - good, that one is now committed to memory. Yes GM Canada made $55 off of you now but Kurt's point makes a lot of sense. Back then records were costly to keep (space/labor/supplies etc.) and these were for cars that were hopefully going to the crusher in 5 to 10 years not lauded over 40 years later.

Othaiii

I think you got alot of answers, but to summarize:
3237 Cutlass Hardtop
Trim 963 Blue Interior
Paint W - W Upper & lower body Midnight Mist (Dark Blue)
Accessory 2g According to the Olds History Center relates to bucket seats, although I have also heard that it designates the brackets for a console, which you obviously had.

You have a nice cutlass there, I believe it is worth restoring. And the 65 motor sounds like a great fit.

I am currently doing a frame-off on a 64 442. If I can be of any assistance give me a shout.

One place that I have found that was a great help was http://baileysclassicautos.com/1964_442.htm a well documented 64 that was restored sometime ago.

Get yourself an Interchageable Part Buyers guide for the 64-72 Olds Cutlass, that list many of the codes you were trying to research.

A good place I have found for reproduction parts is the Parts Place in Chicago. USA Parts is another, good quality, great service and reasonable prices. They both offer downloadable catalogs.

Good luck with your project, remember, your restoring a piece of history. Have fun with it.

Randy

dmcianfa