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Went to leave a car show, no start. Cranked twice fine, on third attempt nothing, just a click or tap sound from the solenoid. Tried again with a jump, still would not turn over and same single tap noise as if solenoid was moving. Towed the car home, with its trophy, pulled the starter out and took it to local auto parts store for bench test. Store personnel weren't real familiar with bench tester, but they did hook up power and ground and starter motor spun with no problem. I cleaned up all connections (power feed, R and S wires) and put starter back in. Same tap noise at solenoid. I got to thinking the bench test bypassed the solenoid, it has to be a defective switch in the solenoid. So I pulled the starter again, replaced the solenoid today, turned the key, same thing. What else should I check? With the solenoid making a noise as if something is moving or trying to move, is it possible the starter drive bendix may be jammed or hung up? Should I take the starter to a true shop for a accurate check-up? Is my next move a replacement hi-torque starter? Or is there something else electrical I should look at? I did clean the connections on the junction block as part of the horn relay as well.
Thanks.
Mike
It could be dirty ground and/or positive battery cable connections at the battery end. It could also be dirty/poor connections at the horn relay power terminal. And lastly a bad battery loading the circuit down, do a voltage check.
Battery voltage at the battery = 12.7 v, with key turned to start, solenoid clicks, batt voltage drops and holds at 11.68 v. So I don't think its a bad cell, right? Cable connections at the battery are clean, I'll check the ground at the block connection.
Agreed. The click is the solenoid pulling in. I had this many, many times over the years due to poor cable connections, corrosion buildup at the battery terminals, and even a loose battery clamp (somebody forgot to tighten it after installing the battery, but I ain't saying any names...).
I had a near same event on my ZTR JD riding mower which baffled me - the dreaded solenoid click. I didn't change starter or solenoid, but instead traced the ground wire. Sure enough, in my case the nut which holds the ground wire to frame was loose as a goose, which provided me to pause and clean all the cable leads. Fires right up every time.
The other question is, do you have the starter support strap in place? That strap doesn't just hold the starter up, it also acts as a ground path. Without it, the ground path is from the steel outer case to the aluminum nose piece to the cast iron block. The dissimilar metals cause galvanic corrosion, which can cause starting problems.
To think Luigi and his wife would still be recognized today for their observations of dead frogs. They gave the term Volt to Giuseppe who provided the physical evidence. Both fine young Italian boys they were.
Thanks Joe, there is no support strap in place. I was wondering what the Service Manual was referring to in removing the support bracket as part of he starter removal process. I see where a trusted Olds parts supplier has the strap available - I'll order one. Couldn't hurt, even though I've driven the car for 30 yrs w/out one. From the responses, it sounds like my issue is electrical and not mechanical...
A quick test for sticking brushes is to have someone turn the key to the start position and if it clicks but doesn't spin, tap the starter housing with a hammer. This will most times cause the starter motor to begin spinning. If that works, install new brushes yourself, have the starter rebuilt, or buy a rebuilt one.
I'm still fighting the dreaded solenoid click as it has been called. I've had the starter tested twice, 2nd time was at an alternator/starter repair service, starter tested fine and brushes showed normal trace on the scope when running, and looked "almost new" per the tech when he took the end cap off. I've cleaned and checked all battery and block ground connections (they were all tight and clean), and I've grounded directly to the starter from the battery negative post using a jumper cable. I've cleaned and tightened the connections at the horn relay junction block. I've had the battery load tested (checked good). Always the single solenoid click with each turn of the key (new solenoid installed, didn't make a difference). Given the solenoid click, does that eliminate the ignition switch or wiring from the switch to the solenoid as a potential cause for the starter not turning? Oh yeah, I did turn the engine over by hand to make sure it somehow wasn't seized. I checked the operation of the Park/Neutral safety switch at the console shift lever (ATM), I get the same click whether the shift lever is in park or neutral, and the back-up lights do come on when placed in reverse. So I think I can rule out that switch? I am running out of things to check, I'm completely baffled by this sudden issue.I would appreciate ideas on what to check further.
The purple wire for the START function runs a pretty circuitous path with many connections. Each one adds slightly to the resistance in the circuit and drops the voltage to the point where the solenoid won't pull in. Testing the starter on a bench tester won't tell you anything about the START circuit voltage. You need to test the voltage at the "S" terminal of the starter when you try to start the car. This is pretty difficult to reach on an Olds with the starter installed, but it's the only way to accurately determine what's going on. Testing continuity without load won't tell you anything, you need to get a voltage reading while cranking (or at least attempting to crank).
I’m guessing there is no easy way to run a jumper cables from the battery to the starter battery cable stud. Even if it was accessible, the idea of trying to make a good connection to test the starter that way wouldn’t appeal to me.
In this case, a voltage drop test will tell you everything you need to know. Put the positive test probe of your meter on the positive post of the battery (ideally, if it’s a top post battery, have a helper hold the probe in the battery post itself, not the cable end). Then put the negative probe on the battery cable stud of the starter. Try and crank the engine, while at the same time looking at the meter. Whatever voltage the meter is reading is how much voltage is being lost in the cable. Hopefully, it’s not more than a tenth of a volt. If it’s more than that, either the cable is corroded inside the insulation where you can’t see, or the wire inside the insulation is defective in some way.
You can do the same test on the negative cable, just put the negative probe on the negative side of the battery, the positive probe of the meter on the engine side of the negative cable.
Be sure to read post #15. Often the problem is at or near the battery connection even if they look clean and tight. I would start the volt drop test there. Pos volt probe to battery post Neg volt probe to cable end near post. Crank and read. Move neg volt probe to pierce cable a few inches from cable end Crank and read again.Then move to starter solenoid post. This way you can isolate the exact spot of high resistance.
The Custom Cruiser wagon did this identical stunt and the (-) battery cable was the culprit. This was a side terminal cable that, after 40 years, the blades on the terminal that "dig" into the battery for connection had worn to where they rarely made a good connection.
Check those cables and if needed replace with 0 gage if available.
OK, lot's of good info and things to consider to solve this problem, I'm leaning toward suspecting the start circuit and the mentioned purple wire at the solenoid. The tech at the starter repair service where I had the starter tested mentioned this as well as something that needs to be tested. I see the purple wire runs from the solenoid to the engine/dash connector --- I haven't traced wires yet, but where would I find this connector? The purple wire does seem quite brittle and heat aged as I have seen now connected/disconnected it several times during the starter removal. Obviously it is very difficult to put a test probe on the S solenoid terminal and try to crank the engine with the car on jack stands (I'm just not that brave), could I instead attach a 4-5 ft 12 AWG test lead together with the purple wire at the S terminal and probe between that test lead free end and ground or batt (-) while cranking and safely beside the car instead of underneath it? What voltage would I want to see at the S solenoid terminal for a healthy and robust start circuit? Is it possible I'm getting enough voltage to the solenoid to make it click but not enough to energize it completely?
The purple wire runs from the "S" terminal on the starter to the large firewall connector below the master cylinder. On the other side of the firewall, it runs to the Neutral Safety Switch, then to the ignition switch. Power to the switch similarly comes from the power stud on the horn relay, via the heavy red wire to the same firewall connector, then to the fuse box where it splits out to the ignition switch. Any resistance in those various connector terminals will drop the voltage a little, and those small drops add up to the point that the solenoid on the starter won't fully engage.
This is why I said that you need to measure voltage at the "S" terminal on the starter while attempting to crank the engine.
The last piece of wire that is connected to the starter will have the same voltage all along its length. If you have the same connector under your hood as in the photo below, you can connect your volt meter probe to the starter side of the connector and that should allow you to lay the volt meter against your windshield where you can see it while turning the key yourself. This will let you check the voltage getting to the starter. If you have that connector, it's not a bad idea to check it for a poor electrical connection as well.
The last piece of wire that is connected to the starter will have the same voltage all along its length. If you have the same connector under your hood as in the photo below, you can connect your volt meter probe to the starter side of the connector and that should allow you to lay the volt meter against your windshield where you can see it while turning the key yourself. This will let you check the voltage getting to the starter. If you have that connector, it's not a bad idea to check it for a poor electrical connection as well.
Yeah... but.
A loose or corroded crimped terminal at the starter end of the purple wire will cause a voltage drop. Ask me how I know this. Yeah, it's a low probability, but not zero. Testing anywhere except at the terminal on the solenoid runs the risk of missing a possible cause. I realize it's a PITA to reach that starter terminal. I'll also point out that in the photo you posted, the non-factory butt splice connector downstream of the factory connector you circled is a prime candidate cause of a voltage drop that would not be tested unless the voltage was measured at the solenoid. And yes, I realize in the photo that splice is in the ignition bypass wire and not the purple start wire, but you get the point. And finally, the 68-up cars don't have that connector in the START wire under the hood - that connector was only used on cars like my 67 Delta that don't have a firewall connector and thus the engine harness is integral to the dash harness. On cars with a firewall connector, the purple wire runs directly from the firewall connector to the starter.
A loose or corroded crimped terminal at the starter end of the purple wire will cause a voltage drop. Ask me how I know this. Yeah, it's a low probability, but not zero. Testing anywhere except at the terminal on the solenoid runs the risk of missing a possible cause.
True, but the OP states that he has removed/installed the starter multiple times. That much activity would most likely have revealed a bad or loose connection at the starter. Ask me how I know...
Originally Posted by joe_padavano
Yeah... but. I'll also point out that in the photo you posted, the non-factory butt splice connector downstream of the factory connector you circled is a prime candidate cause of a voltage drop that would not be tested unless the voltage was measured at the solenoid. And yes, I realize in the photo that splice is in the ignition bypass wire and not the purple start wire, but you get the point.
Correct, my wiring was rather creatively butchered by a previous owner and since I no longer have anything resembling a factory ignition system, that wire is only there because I haven't removed it yet. Back to the topic at hand...
Originally Posted by joe_padavano
Yeah... but. And finally, the 68-up cars don't have that connector in the START wire under the hood - that connector was only used on cars like my 67 Delta that don't have a firewall connector and thus the engine harness is integral to the dash harness. On cars with a firewall connector, the purple wire runs directly from the firewall connector to the starter.
Since I have not owned a Cutlass newer than a 67, I also included this. Reading is fundamental.
Originally Posted by cjsdad
If you have the same connector under your hood...
So, since that connector is not an option, you will need either a second person to help you test the voltage at the starter or something like this to extend your test leads.
Talked with the tech at the starter repair shop again today, seems to know his stuff, he suggested I attach a test lead to the S solenoid terminal and long enough to reach up to the battery B+ post. This will give full battery voltage to the solenoid. If the solenoid kicks in fully and starter turns now, I've narrowed it down to the suspect purple ignition feed circuit somewhere. He mentioned its not necessarily the voltage present but the current the circuit can carry, if it can't supply 30-40A due to corrosion, loose connectors, etc then the solenoid won't kick in fully. Seems to make sense, I'll try that.
Question now also is about the other solenoid wire, running to the R terminal, which is a bypass of the ignition resistor and this wire runs from the coil. Should I be concerned this wire could be suspect as well? Does anyone see any issue with the fore-mentioned test of connecting the S terminal directly to battery to see if the starter then works?
Talked with the tech at the starter repair shop again today, seems to know his stuff, he suggested I attach a test lead to the S solenoid terminal and long enough to reach up to the battery B+ post. This will give full battery voltage to the solenoid. If the solenoid kicks in fully and starter turns now, I've narrowed it down to the suspect purple ignition feed circuit somewhere. He mentioned its not necessarily the voltage present but the current the circuit can carry, if it can't supply 30-40A due to corrosion, loose connectors, etc then the solenoid won't kick in fully. Seems to make sense, I'll try that.
Question now also is about the other solenoid wire, running to the R terminal, which is a bypass of the ignition resistor and this wire runs from the coil. Should I be concerned this wire could be suspect as well? Does anyone see any issue with the fore-mentioned test of connecting the S terminal directly to battery to see if the starter then works?
Thanks
The tech is correct. That's good advice. The bypass wire is low current and is only used to bypass the ignition resistor when cranking the engine. It also runs directly from the starter to the coil, so it doesn't have the large number of connectors and terminals to worry about. The bypass wire has nothing to do with cranking the engine.
The heat load emitted by the headers can be reduced, through wrapping the headers with the header tape used for increasing horsepower on motorcycles. It might not look pretty. But, the horsepower increase and starter reliability should compensate for any blight.
In addition to the tape, an aluminum heatshield could be attached with hoseclamps to the header pipe between the header and the starter motor. I ended up manufacturing such a plate for different reasons. But, it principally will do the same job:
The problem with insulation is that no insulation is perfect. Eventually, the temperature equalizes on both sides of the heat shield or wrap. Worse, if you have a heat shield or wrap on the starter, that also keeps heat IN so that the starter won't cool off as fast once the engine is turned off. The right answer is, fix the voltage drops. The rest of this is just a band-aid.
The heat emitted from cast iron manifolds is much more prolonged than the heat storable within thin-guaged header tubing which tends to cool off much quicker. The heat concerning headers is more of an infrared variety of which such rays can be effectively shielded. I would suggest shielding the starter motor and wrapping the headers. Then attach a thermometer to the starter motor. It would help if the starter motor were first to be painted a reflective color, instead of black.
There are also gear reduction starters available which offer larger clearance between headers and starter motor, in case shielding the unit does not help (which I highly doubt):
Designed For High Horsepower And High Compression Engines
Lighter And Smaller Than OE Starters
Additional Header Clearance...
...Tuff Stuff starters are hand made from premium quality new components - not remanufactured - and are quality built in USA. Most Gear Reduction style starters, which are considerably smaller than the OE starters, incorporate a mounting block that can be indexed to gain additional clearance. Starters include mounting bolts and shims where applicable. Ideal for high horsepower muscle cars, hot rods...
Why would anybody want to wrap the starter motor? Is an increase in starter motor horsepower expected from doing so
If the headers are bent from stainless steel tubing, there shouldn't be corrosion problems to be expected. If the headers are cheap issues, then what better excuse than to replace them with quality manufactures, once corrosion has Hellp'd see them out the door?
Oops! This is one of those usual thread jump-overs into the related thread located under the thread of which I intended on replying
Will link this to the intended thread
Last edited by Killian_Mörder; November 11th, 2020 at 09:57 PM.
October 4th, 2020, 01:48 PM
