henryk8398

Hi all,

I was hoping I could get some insight on a potential starter or flexplate issue.
Every so often, say once or twice a month, I get the "grind of shame" in the Olds (it happens in the Pontiac, too, but very rarely). If I try again, it will always start. The starter was replaced back in February, and I think that's when it started. Of course, logic would dictate that it's the starter, but a couple of other things came to mind:

1. Bad luck. The flexplate just happens to stop "between teeth".
2. Starter drive. Could a new starter drive not like a well-worn flexplate?
3. Flexplate. Haven't gone under there yet. In that case, should bad teeth be obvious?
4. Shims. Maybe I need to add one or two more?

I would appreciate any thoughts or advice. Thanks in advance!

oldcutlass

Start with checking your flexplate, and work back from there on all the above. Also make sure your wire connections are tight and clean.

FAZ442

Solenoid?

Allan R

That's what I thought of right away too. Weak or wrong solenoid? This problem only started when the new starter went in? Just the starter, or complete with solenoid?

Bstone on this site had the same problem with his 68 Delta. Haven't heard how he made out with his.....

henryk8398

It is a complete unit. How would a bad solenoid cause a grinding issue?

FAZ442

I would change the solenoid... pretty cheap fix... the solenoid sends the shaft out and back in which in your case seems be getting stuck when you crank and not retreating which causes the grinding noise.... being that it doesn't always happens YET leads me to believe its the solenoid

FAZ442

If you bought the starter in feb it should still be under warranty so just take the entire thing back and ask for a new one

Allan R

Just thinking - if any shims that were on the car were not put back with the new starter, that could also cause the drive gear to bind (too tight on the fly wheel). But it would do that all the time I think.

If the grinding was never there before, it's highly unlikely IMO that the flywheel is bad.

Lady72nRob71

I say solenoid, too. However, after you pull the starter agin, check the two small wires that go to the solenoid to make sure they are not partialy broken at the terminals. A weak joint causes resistance and limits current flow.

stellar

Could be flex plate solenoid or bad drive in starter. If under warranty I would pull it out check the flex plate ( bad tooth or teeth should be visible) and get a replacement to be sure.

henryk8398

Update: I ordered a reman starter from a local rebuilder. I'll return the NAPA rebuild. While I'm under there, I'll check out the flexplate to see if there is any wear, too.

I drove the Olds all over town last week and I got one grind. It was after driving across town in the intense heat of the afternoon and stopping at a Convenience store for a cold drink. The time before that happened after sitting for an hour or two in a hot parking lot. I don't recall it ever happening on a morning start. I think FAZ442 and Rob are on the money. Stellar, I'm going to inspect the drive when I take it out. We'll see what happens. Thanks for the suggestions, I'll update soon.

henryk8398

Two consecutive grinds yesterday before getting it started. That was enough for me. Got under the car this evening and pulled the starter and inspection cover off. Here's what I saw.

Uh-oh. So are these chewed up teeth the true culprit or is something else wrong? What the heck caused this? How come it never ground before? I checked the starter drive and it looked OK. There were no shims on the starter before putting in the rebuild and none were added. The old, tired starter drive was worn round at the edges.

A few of the flexplate teeth were chipped, but nothing too serious. This car ran without an inspection cover for a while before I got it and added one. I'm guessing gravel caused that.

So it looks like I'm in for a flywheel. I was hoping it was something else, but at least I know what it is now before being stranded. I've decided moving the trans back should be easier. Realistically, how far do I have to move the trans back? Any advice is greatly appreciated!

stellar

I think everyone suspected this would be the outcome, but were wishing for an easier fix. It is not caused by gravel. It is usually caused by an accidental starter engagement while the motor is running or a possible bad drive on a previous starter. The flywheel will need to be changed.
Not all solenoids and drives are created equal. A weak (cheap) solenoid may have contributed to this. There was a design change on the drives where the teeth are champhored.
I once had a customer needing a starter on a chevy pickup. His flywheel teeth were a lot worse than yours all the way around. When I saw it I refused to install a starter until he saw the damage. He had me install the starter any way and to my suprise it started fine with no unusal noise. 4 months later he said it was still working good. On the other hand I have seen them with much less damage than yours and they would grind. Change the flywheel and starter at the same time.

henryk8398

I've ordered a new flexplate and I have a rebuilt starter ready to go. The NAPA one is going back. Just to clarify, I know the worn teeth are not because of gravel. However, I do think some of the other teeth with small chips might have been caused by gravel. I have no idea how long the PO drove it without the inspection cover, so he certainly didn't do me any favors!

Allan R

Sorry to see that Henry. And at the same time glad. At least now you know what was causing the problem. You going to pull it yourself or have a shop do it?

henryk8398

I'm going to do it myself. I'll just do a little at a time over the next few days and hopefully it shouldn't be too bad. I'll probably lift it up and disconnect stuff tonight, start unbolting the next time I get a chance, etc. The new flexplate should come in on at the beginning of next week, so I should have enough time to get it ready.

I'd certainly appreciate any tips on how to pull the trans without going nuts.

FAZ442

sorry henry but pulling the trans without going nuts is impossible lol. Good to see that you have found the answer to your problem on time before it left you out in the middle of nowhere.

Good luck

MDchanic

I've driven 'em for years with no covers. Makes no difference.

Far as I can tell, the cover is just cosmetic, though in extreme cases, such as constant driving on very muddy roads, it may help prolong the life of the starter drive and gears.

- Eric

Allan R

Easy! grab a wrench have a sip o beer, get the jack, have another sip o beer. Unbolt the tranny cross brace, finish de beer and pop a new one, crawl back under de car and come back out for a quick bip o seer. Stare at de beer can an beside to sinish it. Lookit de car and grabba nuddr bere. Call a fren an fisnis de bre.. Wen ur fenrn gtts der, offr him a brer and grabbaaanudde for yerself cuz it's gonna be a beeaatch werkin unner der. Sometime later affer boat of uy v fisnit shootin da sheet ya kal it a night.

Start over again tomorrow!

henryk8398

I had to ask.

stellar

Thanks I needed a good chuckle.

henryk8398

Quick update. I've got the car up in the air, and I've basically got 4 of the 6 trans to block bolts keeping it together. Everything else is out. It's only taken about 2-3 leisurely hours. I've never just pulled a transmission before (only the eng/trans together) and it's not too bad. I don't think it's going to drive me to drink yet! Hopefully the bolts won't be too hard to reach. The flywheel and trans mount will be in today.

Questions to the professionals out there. What are the ballpark number of hours quoted to R&R an older RWD trans like mine?
I'm sure being able to walk under it makes a huge difference, but I've been wondering about it for a long time.
Thanks again!

MDchanic

Say that again when you've got a transmission sitting on your chest and you realize you don't have clearance to roll it off of you to the left or the right .

- Eric

henryk8398

Yeah, I thought of that. I also realized there is no reason to be the transmission jack so I came up with a solution.

It's the jack "cup" welded to a flat place. I welded two tabs on the ends for a bungee cord.

So yesterday, we had the trans in and out and the flexplate replaced in about 3.5 hours. I put the new starter in and all seems well. I think I only cursed up a storm once!

MDchanic

Nice tool - Just enough, but not too much.

Only once?!? It's back to Mechanic School for you, then!

- Eric

henryk8398

I got everything buttoned up last night. I also think I discovered the worst oil leak (out of several) while the trans was off. The oil pan seal below the rear main was seeping oil out. A little permatex #2 took care of that. While I was under there, I changed the oil, too. So far so good. No strange noises from the starter. Starts up quickly and easily. Hopefully I won't have to do that again any time soon! Thanks for everyone's advice and help!

Allan R

Congrats! Feels good to do it yourself doesn't it? And now you know where that oil leak is that will likely come back. I doubt you'll hear anything more from your starter.

Hmmm, wonder if Colin was monitoring this thread. He was having the same problem with his 67.

75cutty455

Man that is seriously funny. I had to copy that part of the thread and email it to some friends.