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I know it is disheartening to hear the feedback but heed it. I am all excited about the concept and think the first picture is way cool. Hope you can someday do it for real...safely.
Hopefully you get positive feedback from one of those other shops when they look at the work you had done. I don't think it's too bad, but what do I know about towing?
You MAW get your ham radio license and use it as a mount for a screwdriver antenna. It would work just fine for that.
In the interest of getting as many expert opinions on this as possible, I sent my hitch photos to another source I respect: the shop that restored the 1959 Shasta camper. That's what the guy does: restore vintage campers, with a nice collection of his own, pulled by vintage cars and trucks. I told him about the feedback I am getting here, and pointed out the concerns you guys have.
Here's what he said:
"I can see where they don't think it's strong enough for a class III hitch but then you are not pulling 9000 lbs they are rated for. That's 1/4 wall angle iron, pretty tough stuff. If it was typical 1/8" wall I'd agree it wouldn't be good enough. What I liked about it is they put the extra cross brace under the gas tank which should keep the back bar from twisting or bowing back and forth. Your hitch is way sturdier than the one I built for my 58 and I've towed thousands of miles with mine. Yes, they usually have 3 bolts per side, but then once again, it's a 9000 lb rated hitch. In my opinion I think it will be fine."
I don't want to start a back-and-forth argument here. But I welcome more feedback, knowing that I'm pulling an 1,800-lb camper, which, according to the vintage chart Joe provided near the start of this thread, doesn't even require a Class 2 hitch, never mind Class 3.
[QUOTE=pfriesen;1454099...I welcome more feedback, knowing that I'm pulling an 1,800-lb camper...[/QUOTE]
As I stated in Post #33 you basically have a bumper hitch with two bolts holding your towing hitch assembly to the bumper bracket. Additionally, it should be obvious from the location of the two bolts in the bumper bracket most if not all of the tongue weight is on those two bolts since they are higher in height than the two bolts in the frame. You're at the edge (limits/recommendations) between a Class I and Class 2 hitch. You're correct regarding ideally a trailer w/ a towing weight of 1800 lbs should have a towing tongue weight of ~180 lbs. Do remember this is a dead tongue weight and is determined by the loading configuration of the trailer (the trailer's axle functions as the fulcrum in balancing the tongue weight). Your worst case scenario (which you should accommodate in the design/size) has to do w/ a moving/momentary tongue weight. Examples: Bridge abutments & uneven pavements. When worse case scenarios are encountered, you want to ensure the hitch assembly and its tongue weight can safely accommodate variances. Nothing worse than driving over bridge abutments watching the rear of the vehicle lift &/or dip to the ground as a result of the car & trailer bouncing on the bridge abutment &/or pavement. You really want to accommodate worse case scenarios. That good looking Shasta trailer most likely has at least a fresh water holding tank (possible a gray water, as well). Water weighs 8.5 lbs/gal. Don't forget lawn chairs, cookers, pots/pans, utensils, etc. all add to the weight. You'd be better served around the Class 2 hitch rating.
At the end of the day the decision is always going to be yours alone. Error on the side of caution and worse case scenarios - e.g. an immediate left hand/right hand turn to avoid a collision, immediate uncontrolled braking in the event they occur.
Since you asked for more feedback - I thought I'd provide it. You have a basic bumper hitch w/ two bolts holding your tongue weight to the bumper brackets. Best of good fortune and enjoy your trips whatever your decision.
Thank you, Norm. I'm reading and learning. The camper does have a small freshwater tank. Agree with you 100%, that I should err on the side of caution and worst-case scenarios. Didn't restore these two vintage works of art to wreck them.
For what it is worth, I shared this thread with a very good friend who has been welding since he was 13 and working in the trailer/container maintenance and repair business (his started by his father). I figured he would have a good objective evaluation that might contribute to the conversation. His consensus agreed with most of the posts here regarding the faults of the design. I hope you can work this out and end up with a safe useable tow package as it is one sweet looking combo. I myself enjoy trailer camping and know how rewarding it can be but understand how defeating any failure might be especially if it could have been avoided.
Sorry for the delay in updating this "controversial" thread . So...
I took the Olds to the hitch specialty shop that didn't want to do the work, initially. The guys there used to do these all the time. They found two problems.
One, the hitch frame wasn't tight to the car frame in one place. A little bump-out in the car frame prevented the hitch frame member from sitting flush. So the nut wasn't threaded all the way onto the bolt. Not good.
The problem was on the opposite side, not the side shown in this photo. At the location of the new nut/bolt.
Two, the bolts the guy used were standard grade. The shop replaced them with Grade 6, if I remember correctly. Had I left it, they said it could have been trouble.
But they are confident in the setup I've got now. They kept the car for a while and also fixed my lighter, which hadn't been working. That allowed me to buy a brake controller that plugs into the lighter. No under-dash mount. Only needs a box mounted to the trailer tongue. Works like a charm.
Ran into another issue, though: When hooking up the camper for the first time -- no water in the tank, very little gear in the camper -- it pulled down the rear of the Olds.
The shop and two other sources of information suggested replacing the rear springs with cargo coils. Got a pair from Sweden, I think it was, late last fall.
I'll have them installed when we finally get rid of our snow. Been another bad winter up here.
You can also get air shocks for the rear or shocks with springs to stiffen up the rear.
Actually, use AirLift bags that go inside the rear coil springs. This way the load it applied directly to the spring mounts on the frame and axle, which are designed for it. The shock mounts are not intended to be weight-carrying like that. You can also get an onboard compressor with a dashboard control that lets you adjust the rear height from the driver's seat.
I have maybe six various styles & heights of trailer hitches in my truck tool box which I carry everywhere - from 1.5" to 12.0". I can see you've already raised the trailer hitch height by reversing the hitch (image below) - but, it didn't buy you enough height (which would have been my very first suggestion). Since this discussion has not revolved around true safety & performance, and you're simply attempting to establish a towing "profile", you know anyone with an 8" to 12" drop hitch you can reverse to gain height and move the weight back towards the camper/trailer axle? Based on the image (alone) you've most likely exceeded the tongue weight; yet, this cannot be established until you actually measure and weigh the camper/trailer empty weight, payload capacity (is not exceeded) and the actual tongue weight. None-the-less, raising the ball hitch height would have been my very first suggestion. Obviously, be mindful you cannot (should not) exceed the camper/trailer manufacturer's stated GVWR. These style campers/trailers are often modified (some extensively) and you may already be in a heavy forward weight configuration. You'll know nothing until you actually take weight measurements. A tongue weight scale is great to own (https://www.etrailer.com/Tongue-Weig...er/e99044.html)
I have maybe six various styles & heights of trailer hitches in my truck tool box which I carry everywhere - from 1.5" to 12.0". I can see you've already raised the trailer hitch height by reversing the hitch (image below) - but, it didn't buy you enough height (which would have been my very first suggestion). Since this discussion has not revolved around true safety & performance, and you're simply attempting to establish a towing "profile", you know anyone with an 8" to 12" drop hitch you can reverse to gain height and move the weight back towards the camper/trailer axle? Based on the image (alone) you've most likely exceeded the tongue weight; yet, this cannot be established until you actually measure and weigh the camper/trailer empty weight, payload capacity (is not exceeded) and the actual tongue weight. None-the-less, raising the ball hitch height would have been my very first suggestion. Obviously, be mindful you cannot (should not) exceed the camper/trailer manufacturer's stated GVWR. These style campers/trailers are often modified (some extensively) and you may already be in a heavy forward weight configuration. You'll know nothing until you actually take weight measurements. A tongue weight scale is great to own (https://www.etrailer.com/Tongue-Weig...er/e99044.html)
The problem is that the OP's full size has a significant rear overhang. That multiplies the tongue weight, causing more load on the rear springs. This is high school physics.
Joe - You can ditch your inflammatory B.S. high school physics remarks at any time. DO NOT toss your underlying innuendoes in my face. Maybe your magic ball can tell us what the current actual tongue weight is on this vehicle? They teach you that in H.S.? I do not appreciate your denigrating remarks.
Originally Posted by joe_padavano
The problem is that the OP's full size has a significant rear overhang. That multiplies the tongue weight, causing more load on the rear springs. This is high school physics.
Joe - You can ditch your inflammatory B.S. high school physics remarks at any time. DO NOT toss your underlying innuendoes in my face. Maybe your magic ball can tell us what the current actual tongue weight is on this vehicle? They teach you that in H.S.? I do not appreciate your denigrating remarks.
Off our meds today? Look, sorry but raising the ball height does exactly nothing to fix the tail-dragging on the car.
The AIr Lift air bags can lift and apply a more firm load carrying capacity with a comfortable ride. Air shocks tend to stiffen the ride and reduce the shock absorption. The coil over shocks are not easily changed when there is no load. And Joe P is exactly correct, the air bags are used where the load was designed to be carried, the springs.
Like I said, this has been a "controversial" thread. Everybody take a deep breath. Let's make kindness our default position. It usually works up here in Canada .
Vintage Chief: our frame-up, camper restoration has remained true to its original state. Virtually no added weight. It's an 1,800-lb camper with a tongue weight of around 180 lbs. As for the hitch height: the priority is maintaining a level camper. So you level out the camper, then you match that height with your hitch. It's a low-riding car, compared to my truck, so it's needs a raised hitch. My truck uses a drop-hitch.
The air bags in the shocks is a good suggestion. I'm hoping to avoid air bags. We shall see how the new coils work out. I'll keep you posted.
You should have simple bubble levels mounted on each side of the camper/trailer both fore & aft. With an empty camper/trailer detached from the tow vehicle - level the camper/trailer. Maneuver the tow vehicle into place to match the receiver to the ball hitch. Adjust height of trailer hitch into receiver accordingly. If you're 4" too low employing a 4" drop-hitch, reverse the drop-hitch so you're now 4" higher. Perform same maneuver with a fully loaded trailer. I really don't understand any need to install air bag inserts for an 1800lb trailer. Adjust the trailer hitch height and head down the road. Good Luck!
That's exactly what I've done, Norm. Bubble levels and all. Once the trailer is level, you can see whether you need to raise or drop the actual ball hitch from the height of the receiver mounted to the Olds.
After doing that, I hitched up the camper and the rear of the Olds dropped significantly. That's led me to where I am today. Trying the new coils, first.
Paul
Last edited by pfriesen; April 9th, 2023 at 09:46 AM.
Reason: More info
Paul - I don't want to split hairs, but it's obviously going to depend on where/how you distribute your towing/traveling weight between both the camper/trailer & towing vehicle - aft of camper/trailer axle (weight should be primarily distributed over camper/axle trailer), inside trunk, back seat, # passengers, etc when under a traveling load. Good luck!
Yup, I hear you, Norm. Very important to distribute the weight evenly in a camper like this. Can cause highway sway if not done properly. Our camping trips are short, one or two nighters. And no kids. What I'm looking for is a nice, safe coupling for short trips, maybe even the odd car show.
One more post and I'll leave everyone alone here. I strongly suggest going back to the first page of this thread and re-reading all the comments about the structural adequacy of this hitch. Angle iron has a very low torsional capability as compared to box tubing. The tongue load on the hitch is entirely reacted by twisting that angle iron member closest to the bumper. This may not be a particularly heavy trailer, but it is imposing a load on the hitch. The crossmember closer to the rear axle is contributing a lot less load carrying capacity than you might think. Again, angle iron is not the preferred structural shape of choice here. Also keep in mind that those frame rails are a lot further apart than the 34" spacing on my one ton truck. This imparts even more bending loads into those angle iron members that are unfortunately far from optimized for bending. There's a reason why real hitches like this use 2" square tube typically. If you had a hitch that could take the added load, the easiest way to fix your tail dragging problem is to use a load leveling hitch. I would be afraid to use one here, given the added load it would impart into a marginal hitch.
None of this is different than what was said back in September. You didn't want to hear it then and I'm guessing you don't want to hear it now, so I'll leave you alone.
Good evening to all. This indeed has been a polarizing post. Perhaps I can chime in with something regarding lifting the sag in the back of this car. We have the same vehicle in LS form, and yes, the overhang in back is very long! We have Air-Lift air bags in the back of the Ninety-Eight (and in our Vista Cruiser as well, and, even when loaded up with our luggage, and cylinder heads etc, with whatever we find at swap meets, the car stays nice and level and feels very good on the road! I would highly recommend the Air-Lifts for your 66! I paid about $120 a few years ago on Amazon for ours, I would have to go through our records to find the part number. Picture shown is from a few years ago near completion of getting Ocean Mist on the road. Edit!: Also, regarding the hitch, we have done lots of towing. Your best friend besides good brakes if and when an emergency arises is to have a good hitch which spreads load on the frame and does not flex itself. The setup now will flex. Box section as suggested by Joe is the way to go. Need a 2- pound hammer? Bring a 5-pounder to be safe!
Last edited by Vistabrat72; April 9th, 2023 at 05:19 PM.
Hello, all. Been a while since I updated this controversial thread.
I'm happy to report one out-of-town camping trip and a few car shows later, this pair remains together and getting along just fine. Those heavy-duty performance coils are an improvement, although the tongue weight of the camper still pulls the rear bumper down two inches. I will likely add the air bags inside the coils eventually. On smooth roads, the pair rides like a dream. On some of our bad roads, over railway tracks, etc, it reacts better than it does when pulling with my GMC Sierra. Less "bucking" from the Olds.
I've developed a signal-light issue, which I've asked about in another thread. And I've had a couple of radiator boil-overs when idling too long. That's a new one. But I've never idled as much as I do now, getting in and out of the car as I'm backing the camper into a campsite in the dark, or hitching it up. New aluminum rad, so it can't be that. I'm told the original four-blade fan is the culprit, that I should add dual electric fans, controlled by a thermostat. Should have known this pair would be a bit of a money pit. Worth every penny, so far. Was a big hit at a local vintage camper rally.
I'll attach a few photos from this summer. The fist-pumps and thumbs up I get from people seeing me drive by is quite something.
Thanks to you all for the encouragement and advice. And if you want to offer more, feel free.
Also, not sure about the original configuration on your car but every car had some kind of fan shroud to optimize the performance of the fan. Ensuring it is present and correct would be a good idea. That is a beautiful pair, I congratulate you on your efforts and results.
I'll look at my shroud situation. I'm not sure they all had them. My '70 Cutlass never had one, and my understanding on that is only models with air conditioning came with one. With whatever I do, a proper shroud is probably a good idea.
September 20th, 2022, 10:51 AM
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