mike 66 toro

Considering the condition of the alternator belt, I think the belt is what clearanced the pulse reducer.



I've done a lot of restorations and have seen a lot of dumb wiring. Electrical engineer, hobbyist, now a tinkerer by trade. I generally approach a car with zero concerns about electrical. Does it run and drive, or could it. Are the structural bits all where they belong. Is the car complete.

I bought it running and driving, and with only the headlights and wipers and two of the power windows working. Nothing else electrical was working. This didn't cause panic, because electrical is usually the least of my problems. This car has been ridiculous so far with the wiring, not what I'd expect on a "classy" car. I'm returning the wiring to safe, durable, normal, factory-like. I solder almost everything. Crimps where appropriate (and using the right tool).

The most hilarious wiring I've ever worked on is on my truck. Long bed diesel dually. Previous owner installed 20 individual amber LED lights on each side, in the running boards. Every time you turned on the lights, a different combination of those 40 lights would come on.

Every bump would reconfigure the display. Slam the door for yet another variation. To say that half the lights at any given time were not working, is not hyperbole.

When I decided to tackle this, I found EIGHTY quick splice connections, out of sight but all exposed to the elements, a foot or so above the road.
Threw most of them in this bag to be used in a future project. 🙃 Made 80+ solder connections. It looks nice when they're all working.

rocketraider

Don't let Joe P know you have that sack of Scotch-Loks.😄 He's not that far away from Lynchburg! I have heard him say ugly things about them...😬

EE should have no issues sorting out a Toronado electrical system. For that matter a disappearing-top Ford or Mercedes.

mike 66 toro

The best thing I've heard said about them is "while they may work OK half of the time, they're really not that good"

ourkid2000

They've done studies you know......... 60% of the time they work every time.

mike 66 toro

Ok, all lighting illuminates now. Yes, I worked many hours on all this.

I know everyone will be shocked to hear that the headlights do not pop up.

I feared I might be missing the actuators but it turns out the previous owner just left them loose banging around in the fenders.

mike 66 toro

Took left one apart (it was frozen) lubed with ATF. That's quite a return spring. I was expecting something to suck the piston down and suck it up to reverse.

cfair

No expert, but usually these diaphragms work against springs. Diaphragms hold the device closed or open with (or without) vacuum.

Then when vacuum is not present the spring pushes the thing open or closed.

The first exception I can think of which works like you describe are the Trico vacuum door locks. They have no spring in the middle and use suction on either side of a corrugated rubber diaphragm to move the door lock up or down as the driver wants.

What's great is how mechanical these things are. You can find tears or cracks in the rubber diaphragms, broken springs, etc. Then you know why the thing isn't working. Repairing is another thing, but at least it's easy to identify what failed. Good design.

If that's a headlight mechanism (it's unfamiliar to me). Be aware some Toro owner have moved to electric motors to replace the original vacuum systems. I have no idea if they're better, just that they exist. If I had a Toro, I'd poll here, and ask the 65 Buick guys if they work well too...

Cheers
Chris

mike 66 toro

Left side working. Need to "rebuild" right side too. Many crusty hoses.

ourkid2000

Nice work! Well done!

mike 66 toro

Right one needs more work... air is leaking through where the rod comes out of the piston. This is what slides up and down the cylinder to move the headlight.

mike 66 toro

Repaired my clock . Still working on the right headlight lifter.

mike 66 toro

Moving to a more important problem... Right blinker issue

My left turn signal works, but the right one does not. The lights themselves work, because the brake lights work. I hate to think its the turn signal switch itself, but am running out of ideas. Am i missing some other kind of failure it could be? Is a good switch available?

Sugar Bear

Does the front work? Bulbs confirmed to be correct and their housings are clean for good connection?

mike 66 toro

Right blinker issue

Neither the front nor the rear blinker works on the right side. Dash indicator for right also does not light up, and there's no clicking noise. All bulbs new and tested working when in a working socket.

mike 66 toro

Right blinker issue

I'm trying to trace through the wiring diagram how the rear blinker/brake light are connected to the blinkers....

Another symptom: If I wiggle the turn signal stalk while signaling left, I can get it to blink the rear light only, **without** the front or the dash indicator working. Without wiggling it, I get left side fully working as normal. That sounds bizarre and makes me think I have a problem with the switch?

This is in addition to the fact I have no blinker on the right side. Front, back and dash all do nothing. No clicking sound either.

cfair

What steering column have you got? There were several including tilt & tele.

If that’s the one you have, look here for fixes to the fairly complex turn signal and more detail than you’ll ever want to know about these columns:

https://classicoldsmobile.com/forums...primer-174709/

Chris

mike 66 toro

Awesome, thank you! I have tilt & tele.
Wow, I am actually relieved to see this cable driven arrangement with the electrical bits under the dash. I have the switchgear for cornering lights, but do not have the lights. Perhaps I'll get lucky and just need to adjust and clean the switch end of things.

cfair

Tilt & Tele Turn Signal Mini-lesson
The cable driven turn signal switch is a 2 part deal. You can get a replacement electrical switch online.

The upper turn signal switch is plastic & now very rare. Getting toward “unobtanium”. Be really careful when opening the column. Especially when pulling off the trim cover over the turn signal & tilt stalks

The upper switch doesn’t need much servicing, but be careful not to stress the plastics or you’ll need to replace them. 57 years later that plastic can be brittle. That may mean find a whole ‘nuther column from a ‘66 Toro, or, failing that, a column from a ‘66 Cadillac which reportedly has some parts in common.

2 Part Switch
The upper switch starts at neutral. If you push the turn signal stalk down for a left turn, it pulls the Bowden (connector) cable back & pulls the electrical switch back to send voltage to the left front & rear turn signal bulbs. If you push the turn signal stalk up for a right turn, it pushes the Bowden cable forward to send voltage to the right front & rear turn signal bulbs. The main problem I’ve had with mine is the right turn signal: the upper switch doesn’t push the Bowden cable _quite_ far enough to activate the electrical part.

If you’re finding it difficult to activate the right or left turn signal, the first step is to remove the lower electrical switch and clean it up with Deoxit5 or replace it. Charlie Jones has a reference for where to find _new_ lower switches. Amazing that they’re avaible 57 years later. The lower switch is also spring loaded on a slot. That mounting slot is intended for you to move the lower switch back and forth to restore functionality. Loosen the 2 5/16” hex screws (but don’t remove - they’re a pain to get back in) and slide the lower switch backward or forward to restore which ever side you need to get working.

If the slot movement solution fails, you’ll need to really dig in and go for the advice I provide about pulling these columns and really servicing them. My first one took me 12 hours easy. So have a weekend available.

Once the column is on the bench, the Bowden cable fix is pretty easy - releasing 2 crimps and sliding the top of the Bowden cable a tiny about (1/16” or up to maybe 1/8”) so as to permit the Bowden cable to engage both sides of the electrical switch. Just be aware that you’re looking for tiny movements fore/aft - too much & you’ll get easy action on one turn and it won’t connect the other side at all…

Toros are neat cars. They were the advanced design of their days. Great for Olds, but as a big car guy, it’s been interesting to see how they downgraded cars like the Starfire in ‘66 to make room for the new stuff. In ‘65, you could get a Starfire convertible, or hardtop, with/without 4 speed, etc. with leather and all kinds of bells & whistles. By ‘66, it was clearly being sunsetted in favor of the front wheel drive phenom - only a coupe was on offer and they cheaped out on tons of accessories.

Cheers
Chris

mike 66 toro

👀

mike 66 toro

After cleaning up the switch and adjusting the cable, I now have perfectly working signals all around. I can't thank you enough for that guide!

torotoyguy

I guess I'm lacking in imagination, but how in the world did someone figure out this design to electrically integrate all this switching?

cfair

I believe those electrical switches were pretty common around GM from maybe 1962 or so.

Then Saginaw introduced tilt columns as an option in 1965 and they decided to use a known-good switch and sturdy mechnical (bowden) cable to the column lever. The mechanical cable could bend a with the upper column with substantially no wear. As we can see more than 50 years later! Very solid engineering.

The other alternative would have been a more complex electrical arrangement in the upper column with wires that would probably have worn faster than the metal cable. At the time that might have meant a deeper upper column just to accommodate a switch up top.

Eventually GM went to an all electric solution in 68 or so & carried on from there when column locks came in.

That leaves these electro-mechanical switches kind of orphaned since they were only used for a few years by in a few models. That's probably also why they're not well documented - it was an extra-cost option and there just aren't that many left.

I hope you got that lower switch back together without breaking the retention tabs. I broke so many that I was happy when Charlie Jones posted a new part replacement source. I have a few spares around for the next time I break one.

Be really, really careful with the upper column plastics. I don't know where you'd find replacements today.

In modern cars, of course, you hit the turn signal stalk, your car's computer calls GM, Microsoft, Google and Facebook to report you're turning and then you get the bulb illuminating.

Thanks, I'll keep that simple electro-mechanical madness. Oh yeah, get off my lawn.

Chris

mike 66 toro

Vintage Chief

mike 66 toro

Climate control lighting

I can't find the bulb(s) physical location, responsible for lighting the climate controls, neither in the manual nor on the controller itself. Any hints? It lights up, very dimly, so I know one or more bulbs exist. I don't have easy access to grope the controller, so a roadmap would be great!
Found.

mike 66 toro

Here we have peak Previous Owner Syndrome.

ourkid2000

Good grief! Very sloppy to say the least.

rocketraider

😳

A while back we had a thread going in AACA forums about the worst hacks you'd found on a car you'd bought. There was some outrageous stuff on that.

But I think that mass of yellow wire takes the cake. I have NEVER seen anything like that on any car I've ever owned, helped work on, or even known.

That's basically a whole spool of wire. Did PO not own a pair of dykes or even a knife? He skinned the wire to make connection (if you can call the twisted bare wire a connection) so he's bound to have had a knife, but stuffed all that wire down in the fenderwell.

Even after growing up redneck, redneck ingenuity on a vehicle or machine still surprises me.

I really don't understand how this Toronado didn't burn to the ground from electrical.

mike 66 toro

Previous owner finishing up some wiring:

cfair

The power antenna can lock up for a lot of reasons including water in the motor. Or a badly bent aerial, or broken nylon line (rare)

Suggest you remove & bench test the mechanical functioning unless you see an obvious electrical failure. As designed the antenna gets power only when the ignition switch is on (i.e - accessory, start & run positions). I’ve hacked mine to work from battery power since I kept forgetting to roll it down until after I’d shut off the car.

If you need to replace various generations of GM products can work but keep your old one since you may need to mix & match the parts to make one that works.

Must say with modern stereos, Bluetooth, iPods, iPhones and USB as sources, I don’t listen much to AM/FM anymore. Even with the fancy (!) 2 speaker system with, ahem, Reverb!!

Cheers
Chris

Hope that helps.

mike 66 toro

Is there some more detailed info on wiring colors, etc, for the power windows?

Depending on the moon phase I have either 2 or 3 windows working. None of the driver's window controls work, but the individual ones by the windows do, when they do.


As usual with this car, the wiring was the primary issue. The antenna works now, however it makes a loud clicking at the ends of travel, and stops at the bottom with about 3 inches sticking up. Is any of that normal?

ourkid2000

Fisher body manual

mike 66 toro

Thanks! Any idea what the purpose of "Relay" is, and its location?

ourkid2000

I think it's mounted under the front seat if I'm not mistaken. It's for the power seat adjustment I believe.

torotoyguy

It sounds like the wires in the conduit between the drivers door and the door frame are mostly broken from the repeated flexing of opening/closing the door.
Years ago with my first daily driver '66 Toro, I had to splice in new high-flex wires in order to restore power window operation from the drivers door.

As far as the power antenna goes, I don't think it's operating correctly, but I don't have any actual experience with that one

Loaded68W34

Here are a few photos where you can see my original power antenna (1968) the whole way down. Unlike modern antennas that retract the whole way into the housing, originals did not (other than 60's Cadillac’s) and the power function was actually used as part of station tuning. The clicking sound is normal. There is essentially a spring-loaded clutch in the base that winds up the plastic cable to raise and lower the mast. The clicking happens when the mast is at the end of its travel and is the sound of the "clutch" slipping so cable is not ripped off the mast. I would suggest not running the antenna a long time at either "stop" up or down as one of the most common failure points in these antennas is a broken cable.

cfair

The traditional location for the power window / power seat relay in a mid-60’s Olds (and GM, more generally) is behind the driver’s side kick panel. Olds usually secured the relay with 5/16”s hex head screw against the body.

The relay’s wear, but if you have functioning window switches, your relay is still working. If your driver’s switch doesn’t work, the fix is new switch points which can be found from various vendors. What happens is the up/down points burn and get carbon scored, then don’t provide electricity to the motors. You just need to clean up your switch points with a dremel and a little (really little) sanding. Or get a fresh set of switch points. Your call.

The good news is some/most of your window motors are working, You just need to freshen up the most-used switch in the drivers door.

Chris

mike 66 toro

Beautifully restored/preserved vehicle there, and good news for my antenna too!

cfair

The clicking sound is normal. I believe its the nylon cable reaching the end of it’s travel.

I’ve always thought of it as the “Stop holding the button” sound. In up or down position. I’ve never had a problem with it clicking a few times. Just don’t hold it there and beat the h*ll out of the motor.

Contemporary car magazines asked why the antenna didn’t go up or down automatically when the radio was turned on or off. I thought that was a good question.

Be aware that if you mount a second radio (like a modern Alpine with all the latest sources & hands free like the BT149) you can get a “Y” cable for the coaxial cable from the antenna and feed both radios from one antenna

Hope that helps
Chri

cfair

The relay for power seats & windows is behind the driver’s side kick panel. When engaged by either a power window request or power seat request, it closes and provides high amperage electricity to whatever is calling for it.

What’s under the seat is an electric motor with a set of solenoids that spin solid cables to move the seat up/down rear; up/down front and fore/aft. Somewhere on YouTube is a Cadillac-related video from CaddyDaddy that shows the guts of the 6 way seat mechanism.

Having seen the video, I’m getting interested in re-greasing & restoring the seat mechanisms. If I have it correct, it’s more or less deep cleaning and remediating any obvious problems, but at the end you have a system that works better.

Cheers
cf